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Old 10-22-2013, 09:57 AM   #881
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post

I asked this already and you didn't respond, but if the Tea Party is motivated by lack of jobs, then I can understand anger at the government, which includes President Obama.
I guess I didn't realize you were asking me. My bad.

You and I both know there's only so much the government can do to create jobs (ie., not a lot, unless you create new bureaucracies and hire a lot of new people...which I suppose the ACA has done). What the government can do is stimulate the economy, and given how the economy continues to lurch listlessly in terms of actual jobs delivery, this has been problematic at best -- and despite the naïveté of the Tea Party candidates who rolled into office in 2010, there's not a whole lot they're actually able to do to provide jobs for their constituents. What thy can do is address massive government spending. Which is I suppose where opposition to the ACA comes in -- it's what they can do, so that's what they focus on.

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Well this is actually a lie.
Is or is not the ACA a tax?
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:08 AM   #882
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I think the entire point I'm trying to make here is that the middle is no longer where the truth lies on a lot of these issues, but that's neither here nor there.
No one on one side or other of an issue ever thinks that the middle is the right course. Nonetheless...

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Genuinely interested to hear specifically what you think is wrong with the ACA. There's a good chance we agree on what's wrong with it.
The whole notion of "if you want to know what's in the plan you'll have to vote for it to find out" chicanery aside, I've been very clear about the issues, in that it doesn't actually address the skyrocketing costs of healthcare. Not does it address the fact that the quality of public health is already not great in this country, and forcing millions of new customers into the system -- when there are only so many doctors who are already overworked -- will be an additional drain on resources. Again, there are major structural inefficiencies and inequalities in our system that the ACA does not address -- not to mention the fact that the costs will go up dramatically for states in three years, and many states won't be able to afford it.

Affordability is the issue. Romney's plan made sense for MA because it's already a fairly healthy state, with a specific constituency, with the state as the final arbiter in terms of allocations for MedicAid funds. Expanding to a one-size-fits-most national system did nothing to address the fact that the poorest states simply can't afford the plan.

For me it's a simple cost issue, and nothing is being done to address those costs.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:20 AM   #883
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Between our current economic malaise (a repeat of the Carter years without the inflation) and the launch of the expensive, broken ACA, the cries of BECAUSE RACISM is just a diversion from the economic reality faced by the US. No one is claiming racism doesn’t exist but we’ve reach a point in political discourse where actual evidence of racism is not necessary.

It is abundantly clear that the rollout of the ACA should have been delayed for individuals (just as it was delayed at the corporate level (even though the law is the law)) to, at a minimum, get the basic system to work. Delay was not an option for Obama. Even a 6 month delay proposed the GOP was shot down.

Not only is BECAUSE RACISM a handy diversion from our nation's economic failings, we can see the true reason for the message from the left (it certainly isn’t to address, correct or solve racism) – money. The left is acutely aware of the profitability of the BECAUSE RACISM message.

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Old 10-22-2013, 10:38 AM   #884
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BECAUSE HISTORY (a more accurate term) isn't a deflection away from the present economy. It IS an explanation of the vitriol and irrationality of 30ish members of Congress and many of their constituents, none of whom have presented any useful economic proposals, let alone, as had been pointed out, done anything about jobs, jobs, jobs. This is evidence of the fact that BECAUSE THE ECONOMY has no substance behind it, and it's a mask for irrational anti-Obama hatred BECAUSE RACISM.

Forced transvaginal ultrasounds and shuttering abortion clinics in Texas doesn't do much for the economy, neither does lowering taxes on the wealthy. When people point to debt as the #1 issue affecting the country, but then fight to the death to avoid sunsetting the very unsubsidized tax cuts that have created the debt to begin with, when they refuse to acknowledge that the deficit is tumbling, and when food stamps and Head Start and PBS (1/1000ths of pennies on the dollar!) are presented as drivers of this debt, it doesn't seem as if anyone is actually serious about dealing with what is presented as the greatest crisis of our time (debt).

All this, plus the fact that no one on the right cared about debt until 1/21/09. Deficits sure didn't matter to Cheney.

One can see how BECAUSE RACISM is a compelling explanation for the free pass Bush gets and the blaming of the 2008/9 Great Recession on Obama.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:17 PM   #885
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
The whole notion of "if you want to know what's in the plan you'll have to vote for it to find out" chicanery aside, I've been very clear about the issues, in that it doesn't actually address the skyrocketing costs of healthcare. Not does it address the fact that the quality of public health is already not great in this country, and forcing millions of new customers into the system -- when there are only so many doctors who are already overworked -- will be an additional drain on resources. Again, there are major structural inefficiencies and inequalities in our system that the ACA does not address -- not to mention the fact that the costs will go up dramatically for states in three years, and many states won't be able to afford it.

Affordability is the issue. Romney's plan made sense for MA because it's already a fairly healthy state, with a specific constituency, with the state as the final arbiter in terms of allocations for MedicAid funds. Expanding to a one-size-fits-most national system did nothing to address the fact that the poorest states simply can't afford the plan.

For me it's a simple cost issue, and nothing is being done to address those costs.
Nathan, why does it have to be an either/or proposition? The health insurance industry and the healthcare industry are two different industries. I agree with you that the actual costs of healthcare are insane and that something should be done about it. But just because nothing is being done about the cost of healthcare, why does that mean that trying do something about the cost of health insurance is a bad thing?

Do you support insurance companies no longer being able to lock people out on the basis of pre-existing conditions?

Do you support the ban on rescission?

Do you support people being able to stay on their parents' plans for a longer time?

If you do, well, those things could've happened without the individual mandate. The insurance companies wouldn't have allowed it.

You think we shouldn't have been doing business with them in the first place? I agree. I wanted a single-payer system.

If you think there was a way to get those concessions without giving the insurance companies what they wanted, and without going to a single-payer system, I would love to know what it is.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:18 PM   #886
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BECAUSE HISTORY (a more accurate term) isn't a deflection away from the present economy. It IS an explanation of the vitriol and irrationality of 30ish members of Congress and many of their constituents, none of whom have presented any useful economic proposals, let alone, as had been pointed out, done anything about jobs, jobs, jobs. This is evidence of the fact that BECAUSE THE ECONOMY has no substance behind it, and it's a mask for irrational anti-Obama hatred BECAUSE RACISM.

...

All this, plus the fact that no one on the right cared about debt until 1/21/09. Deficits sure didn't matter to Cheney.
If you'll remember, Bush's first attempt at TARP -- which would have exploded the debt and the deficit -- went down to shocking defeat in both houses of Congress. No one at the time wanted to incur the bill for that one. It was deeply unpopular publicly, it was unpopular politically, and there was nothing racist about that opposition then when it was a white man in the office.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:21 PM   #887
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If you'll remember, Bush's first attempt at TARP -- which would have exploded the debt and the deficit -- went down to shocking defeat in both houses of Congress. No one at the time wanted to incur the bill for that one.
That's a very simplistic (and inaccurate) way to describe the opposition.

It wasn't simply about running up debt, it was that the first attempt at TARP was shoved down everyone's throats and the country was expected to sign up to $700bn of spending which was outlined in a ridiculous 3-page document that gave Hank Paulson broad powers to spend the money largely as he deemed it fit. It didn't go down to "shocking defeat", but was defeated rather narrowly at 228-205 and the amended version which last I recall was some 500-odd pages and actually provided detailed threshold tests and an outline of the risk appetite passed.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:39 PM   #888
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The very first real Tea Party gathering was on April 15th, 2009, on tax day, taxes from the PREVIOUS president. YET all the signs and all the speeches were about Obama and Obama's taxes, which he had yet passed one... To me that speaks volumes as to the Tea Party's motivations. I think if you're trying to sweep under the rug the role race plays, then you're purposely being obtuse.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:35 PM   #889
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The very first real Tea Party gathering was on April 15th, 2009, on tax day, taxes from the PREVIOUS president. YET all the signs and all the speeches were about Obama and Obama's taxes, which he had yet passed one... To me that speaks volumes as to the Tea Party's motivations. I think if you're trying to sweep under the rug the role race plays, then you're purposely being obtuse.
It certainly speaks to the anxiety many were feeling over Obama. So many believe, and still do, that he intended to make the country socialist. There were others who did, and still, believe that he will set up a communist state, gulags and secret agents and all. This stems from his grandparents' and his mother's political beliefs, and also when he told Joe the Plumber that he wanted to "spread the wealth". Race did play a role, as shown with all those incredibly racist signs at rallies. But the major anxiety over anything communist related with some was definitely a fuel.
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:03 PM   #890
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AFL-CIO Labor Group Warns Democrats About Proposed Medicare Cuts: 'Don't Try It... We Will Never Forget'

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AFL-CIO Labor Group Warns Democrats About Proposed Medicare Cuts: 'Don't Try It... We Will Never Forget'
By Matthew Mientka | Oct 22, 2013

As conservatives praise Congressional Republicans for this month’s government shutdown, liberal leaders on the left likewise sought to lockdown Democrats in the looming fight over entitlement spending in Washington.

“No politician… and I don’t care the political party… will get away with cutting Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid benefits. Don’t try it,” AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka said in a speech to be given in Las Vegas, on Tuesday. “This warning goes double for Democrats,” he said. “We will never forget. We will never forgive. And we will never stop working to end your career.”

Like leaders of the right-wing Tea Party, left-wing labor unions are threatening to punish any bi-partisan dealmakers with political termination. Whereas AFL-CIO leaders had in the past threatened to merely withhold support for such Democrats, Trumka said they would now actively oppose them during future primary races, using massive amounts of political money.
I'm not hearing "compromise" or "bi-partisanship" or "reform."

I'm hearing extremism, Left-wing extremism. Democratic base extremism.
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:41 PM   #891
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INDY, like the Tea Party, is showing us the intersection of religion and politics.

... the understanding of politics as a religion, with faith based policies, the refusal of facts and evidence from people who actually know things, and the fundamentalist tendency to shape the entire world through a single moment of clarity, as well as a fervent belief in the inerrancy of the "founding fathers." It's like talking to a bunch of dry drunks.

While debt is important, it is not the most pressing issue facing the economy.
You're projecting again.

As a secularist you would conflate political principles with religious orthodoxy. It's you that recognizes no power higher than The State, I do. I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that. My faith preaches personal salvation, you place faith in the collective salvation of a powerful egalitarian government.

Everyone has a religion. I know what mine is, please don't project yours on me.
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:46 PM   #892
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It's you that recognizes no power higher than The State, I do. I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that. My faith preaches personal salvation, you place faith in the collective salvation of a powerful egalitarian government.
This is the stupidest thing I have ever read.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:42 PM   #893
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You're projecting again.

As a secularist you would conflate political principles with religious orthodoxy. It's you that recognizes no power higher than The State, I do. I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that. My faith preaches personal salvation, you place faith in the collective salvation of a powerful egalitarian government.
Talk about projecting.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:08 AM   #894
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I agree with you that the actual costs of healthcare are insane and that something should be done about it.

...

You think we shouldn't have been doing business with them in the first place? I agree. I wanted a single-payer system.
So did I.

Instead, we got a $700M website that doesn't work weeks later. We got an affordable care act that the nation's poorest states can't afford. And that millions of other Americans can't afford either. Read the below, and buckle up -- it's kind of an overwhelming ride.

http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/10/...merican-lives/

Someone, tell me how this is helping.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:13 AM   #895
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Those referring to a 'single payer system' (I guess that's supposed to be something like Australian or UK style public health care?)... if the Tea Party was willing to wreck the joint over Obamacare, how on earth would the votes ever be there for honest to god socialised healthcare?

How?
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:26 AM   #896
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Nevermind the Tea Party - try finding a handful of "regular" Republicans to support this clearly "liberal" measure. Good luck!

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"Many Republicans searching for something to say in defense of the disastrous shutdown strategy will say President Obama just doesn't try hard enough to communicate with Republicans," Durbin said. "But in a 'negotiation' meeting with the president, one GOP House Leader told the president: "I cannot even stand to look at you.'"

"What are the chances of an honest conversation with someone who has just said something so disrespectful?" the Illinois Democrat added.
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:46 AM   #897
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AFL-CIO Labor Group Warns Democrats About Proposed Medicare Cuts: 'Don't Try It... We Will Never Forget'

Just doesn't fit the narrative of "all the crazy" being on the Right does it?
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:04 AM   #898
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That's actually fairly typical lobbying which is done not just by unions but by all sorts of conservative organizations as well, particularly the socially conservative ones. If you think that this is something unique, you don't know how Washington works.

The difference may be that the Wall Street bankers won't say out loud what the unions or the religious groups will.

When the Democrats elect 50 union leaders who the hijack Congress, we can talk.
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:50 AM   #899
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You're projecting again.

As a secularist you would conflate political principles with religious orthodoxy. It's you that recognizes no power higher than The State, I do. I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that. My faith preaches personal salvation, you place faith in the collective salvation of a powerful egalitarian government.

Everyone has a religion. I know what mine is, please don't project yours on me.
This is incredibly moronic. Rights existed long before God came on the scene in varying forms, and will continue to exist long after God is forgotten, precisely because they are man made, something we collectively decided were 'good' things. So yeah I reject that those unalienable rights come from God. I place my faith in the power of people to do good for themselves and oh so importantly for each other, that is what the state is. I grant you that there has become a disconnect between the people and a the political class that runs most states now, who mainly work for lobbyists and corporations, but that is I imagine what most of us here do not want the state to be, it just so happens that universal healthcare is one of those things that is actually for the people, by the people.

You seem to view the state as some disembodied devil no matter what it does, separate from the people. Your not fighting for the state to be better than it is, your fighting for the destruction of any good it can still do, in effect your personal salvation is making you incredibly selfish towards those who have not or will not have your chances in life.

I also find it funny that unions remain portrayed as the devil as well, especially since its they who gave you your workplace protections, your weekend etc. You know they are made up of ordinary people to. They are not some whack jobs out to mug you.

Anyway I'm not incredibly sure about this ACA business, I mean I generally think you guys should go for the single payer system (if it is like the NHS here or in Australia), but it's a bit early to judge the effect of a policy that has only been implemented a few weeks ago? Its a bit hard to judge how the land lies.

It's odd to see a country polarised between the centre-right and the far right.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:26 AM   #900
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The very first real Tea Party gathering was on April 15th, 2009, on tax day, taxes from the PREVIOUS president. YET all the signs and all the speeches were about Obama and Obama's taxes, which he had yet passed one... To me that speaks volumes as to the Tea Party's motivations. I think if you're trying to sweep under the rug the role race plays, then you're purposely being obtuse.
This really doesn’t add anything to the BECAUSE RACISM dynamic. Obama ran for office on a big government (thus, higher taxes) platform. Opposition to the big government approach wasn’t going to disappear after the 2008 election.

As for some of the signs that appear at rallies, while I am not going to support or defend any specific sign, I would note there is a long history of using caricatures and effigies in political protest. And this forum was no different for sharing of demeaning illustrations during the prior administration. Can the current President be subject to the same level of political protest? How do we avoid a chilling of political speech?
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