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Old 12-01-2003, 09:32 PM   #1
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The Next Rodney King

I will let the video speak for itself. No articles. There them both . Watch all two...thoughts...opinions.

http://www.local6.com/video/2673639/detail.html

http://www.local6.com/video/2673644/detail.html
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Old 12-01-2003, 11:40 PM   #2
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My poor sentence structure aside...I thought I typed watch them both. I am puzzled.... are police officers not required to perform CPR? I was trained in the military to perform CPR. I was trained in the hotel industry as a hotel "detective" (security) to perform cpr. Why do they not perform CPR on this man for approximately 2 minutes?


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Old 12-02-2003, 01:56 AM   #3
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I can not believe you would actually equate Rodney King incident with this. Ya i watched the tapes and all i see is a man that outweighs both officers running at them trying to hurt them trying to do anything in his power to get away and injure them in the process.

Just because the attacher is black means that this is another incident like King's?

I'm dissapointed you would even relate the two. I thought you would be way above that Dread.

This man should have ben shot as sson as he kept at the offcier. There is one thing most people in the civilised world should know, DONT ATTACK AN OFFICER! This man was deemed to be on alot of drugs and that is what they think killed him. There are no intentional head shots, only to the torso, as to limit the damage.

He died becasue he was 400 pounds on drugs and had many diseases. Not because he was beat by cops defending themselves.
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Old 12-02-2003, 02:49 AM   #4
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I saw the video, it was standard police procedure all the way.
These cops should be credited for doing the right thing, it is a far cry from racism/police brutality.
Plus, the video doesn't show when they took the perp into jail and all the other details of when he died so everyone please hold their horses before jumping to conclusions!
Thumbs up to these cops
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Old 12-02-2003, 05:22 AM   #5
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Bonoman I have yet to Post my Opinion.....and the Title came into my mind because it was exactly the way I heard it described on the radio by a "civil rights" leader.

Thanks for the vote of confidence

I have withheld my true feelings from the thread because of my prior POLICE background in the military. My only criticism was the fact that I see no one for two minutes doing any CPR. I have NOT criticized any of the police for their actions in my post.
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Old 12-02-2003, 05:27 AM   #6
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HEre are two examples of leaders from within the Cincinnati Community and their comments:

[Q]"How many of our people have to die before the city decides to do something about it?" Nathaniel Livingston Jr. of the Coalition for a Just Cincinnati told The Associated Press. [/Q]

[Q]"We are not trying to say that this gentleman was innocent. I don't know what the circumstances were, but I have seen the film, and the kind of beating that I observed would raise questions in anyone's mind," said Dr. Calvert Smith, president of the Cincinnati chapter of the NAACP. [/Q]
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Old 12-02-2003, 11:21 AM   #7
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Here's my deal with this situation. Does it really take this many TRAINED officers with pepper spray and batons to take this man down. Yes he outweighs them and assumably on drugs, but I do know a little bit about the basic training of how to deal with someone like this. This man was obese by no means quick and agile. Now I was trained in martial arts for 12 years, one of the first things you learn is how to use someone's weight against them, you learn how to take someone down 2 to 3 times your own weight. I believe in talking to my police friends a lot of these same skills are taught in basic training for police officers. Now I'm 5'-9" 145lb frame, I'm not a large guy but with very minimal training could take this guy down. Especially with the aid of pepper spray and a partner.

Next the guy was already down, unarmed and once again not very agile someone as obese as him takes awhile to get up off the ground. I would think they could have easily cuffed him from this position with a little force. Yet they continued to beat him and ask him to place his hands behind his back. And sprayed him once again once he was down. Now given the angle and the amount of people surrounding him it's hard to tell if he was in a position to do so. But in my opinion the continuing of hitting him was excessive.

Finally is the issue that Dread brings up as to why they did not try and recesitate.

By no means is this man innocent, but he shouldn't have died. Ironically a bullet with the intention to wound would have left this man much better off.
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Old 12-02-2003, 11:49 AM   #8
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According to what I've read and seen in news reports, paramedics were actually first on the scene and they called the police when the man became unruly...if the paramedics were already there, why didn't THEY perform CPR?
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:45 PM   #9
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Im here in Cincy and its been all over the news as you can imagine. The quotes from some Cincy leaders are not shocking considering the racial tension between people and the police in this city.
it was asked how many officers are needed to take this man down? Im not sure, but he was high on PCP and this could have helped him as far as not being able to feel much pain. And while he was not agile, he was very strong and someof the officers have the scars to prove that.
In summary, I dont think the officers were inappropriate.
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Old 12-02-2003, 02:00 PM   #10
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Well I guess we can use him as a poster child for the "say no to drugs campaign".
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Old 12-02-2003, 03:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's American Wife
According to what I've read and seen in news reports, paramedics were actually first on the scene and they called the police when the man became unruly...if the paramedics were already there, why didn't THEY perform CPR?
I believe that is partially correct...they were there and they LEFT. The video clearly shows the police saying "they bailed?" in reference to the paramedics.
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Old 12-02-2003, 06:34 PM   #12
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I'm not sure it was an example of excessive force, but I did find it interesting that the tapes seen yesterday are different than today. When the tape first aired here in Oh they showed a few seconds in the beginning that had several severe head blows. Later that night and on nat'l tv today that beginning was omitted.
Like I said, no judgement just observation.

I do agree that PCP is known to create irrational stamina, including continuing to act after several gunshot wounds.
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Old 12-02-2003, 08:18 PM   #13
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The tapes I have posted are allegedly unedited tapes.....not sure what you are referring too....

The coroner does not substantiate head blows if I am not mistaken...I will look for those findings as well.
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Old 12-02-2003, 08:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine

I do agree that PCP is known to create irrational stamina, including continuing to act after several gunshot wounds.
Exactly, when the U.S. military were fighting Philipine guerillas in the late 19th early 20th century U.S. soldiers were having a hard time killing the rebels even at point blank range. Why?
Because the rebels were under the influence of something like PCP. From my understanding this caused the U.S. military to create a more powerful gun to take down the rebels.
So overweight dude + PCP = very bad things
Again the police did their job give them a break.
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Old 12-02-2003, 10:36 PM   #15
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OK...I waited 24 hours....

1st....The Police in my opinion acted 100% appropriately.

2nd...The Press Has not consistently shown the man attacking the officers leading to a misrepresentation of the situation.

3rd...The police did not perform CPR. Why?

I have thought about this. I always carried a CPR mask with me when I was on duty. I bought my own. In the hotel we had hidden stations where better masks were placed that were better protection in areas that were highly populated like restauraunts or ballrooms.

If these officers did not have protection equiptment and this man was acting irrationally as if on drugs, ie (heroin maybe) I am not sure I would perform CPR without the proper equiptment. I am not going to risk my life contracting something that could kill me.

4th...why did the EMT's leave???? They "BAILED".


I am saddened by the death of this man. I was working one night when a man dropped to the floor of a Christmas party at the hotel. It was a Brigham and Womans Hospital Party and not a single person performed CPR on the individual. I do not know why. To this day I am confused by it, maybe because they had all been drinking that evening, maybe because the doctor was not well liked. My parter and I performed CPR on the person without any success. The immages of the police standing there doing nothing brought back the memories of that night with so many not doing anything.
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Old 12-03-2003, 09:21 AM   #16
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from cnn.com

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/1...ody/index.html

New tape: Arrestee danced, marched around restaurant
Coroner's office says suspect suffered no internal injuries
Wednesday, December 3, 2003 Posted: 5:26 AM EST (1026 GMT)


CINCINNATI, Ohio (CNN) -- New video released Tuesday showed a man who died shortly after a violent confrontation with police dancing and marching around a restaurant and in the parking lot before officers arrived on the scene.

The video, shot from inside and outside the White Castle restaurant, showed Nathaniel Jones greeting a friend inside the restaurant early Sunday morning, and then dancing briefly. He then went into the parking lot, where he continued to dance and march like a soldier.

Later, he fell down and rolled down a hill. Restaurant employees called the fire department at 5:45 a.m. to report his bizarre behavior.

The tape also shows another view of the altercation with police, and Jones is seen lunging at one officer, as he is on the squad car dashboard videotape.

Jones, who weighed 350 pounds, died at a hospital shortly after police beat him with metal nightsticks to subdue him. The Hamilton County Coroner's office said Monday an autopsy showed Jones, 41, had an enlarged heart and had cocaine and PCP, or angel dust, in his system. An official cause of death is expected to be issued Wednesday.

The coroner's office on Tuesday said Jones had bruises on his legs but no sign of injuries to his internal organs.

In a statement, the coroner said Jones had linear bruises on his right calf, right thigh, right buttock and right lower back, but "there was no evidence of transmission of force to internal organs."

Jones had "a markedly enlarged heart, consistent with hypertensive heart disease," a coroner's statement said Monday.

Police later found about a third of a gram of powdered cocaine and two cigarettes dipped in PCP, or "angel dust," in Jones' car, the coroner's office said Tuesday. Preliminary tests showed the presence of both in Jones' system.

"Each of these drugs is a central nervous system stimulant and has been associated in some cases with bizarre and violently aggressive behavior," the statement said. The toxicology report will show exactly how much of each substance was in Jones' system.

The case has stirred fears in the Ohio metropolis, where the killing of an unarmed black man by a white police officer in 2001 sparked three nights of rioting.

The police, the FBI and the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division are gathering information on the incident.

Police have placed the six officers involved on administrative leave, as is standard in cases where a suspect dies in police custody. The Citizen Complaint Authority, created after the 2001 riots, also is looking into the incident.

Police chief defends officers
Meanwhile Tuesday, Cincinnati's police chief said a police cruiser video camera that recorded the incident indicates the officers acted properly.

Chief Thomas Streicher Jr. said, "Officers came under attack. At one point, they're defending themselves. At another point, a transition is made to where they are trying to arrest a person for a felony act of violence. ... Certainly, the standard for use of force in the United States is that the officers can use force to defend themselves and/or to overcome resistance to arrest. (CNN Access: Cincinnati police chief)

"These things take a tremendous toll on the officers," Streicher said, noting the widespread media attention.

The video camera was rolling when police got to the scene, but there was a brief gap in the tape.

Streicher said the camera automatically shuts off when the police cruisers are parked. That's done to avoid the running down the car's battery.

The camera can be turned on by a remote control on an officer's belt, and that's what might have happened as the situation escalated.

"If so, I think it was a very wise decision on the part of the officers," he said.

Police recount incident
The incident began at 5:45 a.m. Sunday, when the manager of a White Castle restaurant called the Cincinnati Fire Department to report that a man was unconscious on the floor.

Police gave this account:

When paramedics arrived, they found Jones and a woman who was with him, who was also in some sort of medical distress. Jones then regained consciousness, began acting strangely and left the restaurant.

At that point, following standard procedure, the fire officials called police.

A police videotape shows a squad car arriving at the restaurant at 5:58 a.m., at which point the recording device was switched off. (Account of video)

During the next few moments, which are not visible on tape, the two officers from the squad car approached Jones in the parking lot of the restaurant.

The tape resumes rolling at 6 a.m. An officer is heard saying to Jones, "You gotta tell me what's going on."

Jones then says, "White boy, redneck," and the tape shows him lunging at the officer and attempting to put him in a headlock.

At that point, the two officers -- both of whom are white -- wrestle Jones to the ground and use their metal nightsticks, appearing to strike him around the shoulders and torso numerous times and yelling repeatedly, "Put your hands behind your back!"

Soon after, four more officers arrive, including one black officer, and an apparent reference to pepper spray is heard on the tape.

The view of Jones, who is being subdued on the pavement in front of the squad car, is obscured from the camera, which is mounted on the dash.

At this point, what sounds like "Help!" is heard coming repeatedly from the pile of men. It becomes progressively fainter with each utterance.

A few minutes later, one officer asks for paramedics.

"He's got a pulse; he's just not breathing," the man says of Jones.

Jones was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead.
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Old 12-03-2003, 12:42 PM   #17
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all i see in this video is police officers using proper police procedure to subdue a man who was violently out of control and obviously under the influence. this man attacked the officers first, and was subdued in a non-lethal matter. it is not the police officer's responsability to know that the man has an enlarged heart. they do not have x-ray vision, and they absolutely can not take the risk of not subduing him because he might have a heart condition. autopsy reports show his brusies to be on his legs, buttocks, arms, etc., and that there was no trauma suffered to any internal organs. chemical spray would have done very little to subdue a man jacked up on PCP. i took this quote off a web page detailing the strengths and weaknesses of various forms of non-lethal froce used my police and other civil servants.
Quote:
Chemical agents are not effective on many individuals, especially the mentally disturbed, those who are intoxicated, and persons under the influence of certain drugs.
the plain and simple facts are that this man attacked two police officers, and was subdued in a completely legal way. with his heart condition combined with the drugs he was on, it was only a matter of time before this man died.
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Old 12-03-2003, 12:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
all i see in this video is police officers using proper police procedure to subdue a man who was violently out of control and obviously under the influence. this man attacked the officers first, and was subdued in a non-lethal matter. it is not the police officer's responsability to know that the man has an enlarged heart. they do not have x-ray vision, and they absolutely can not take the risk of not subduing him because he might have a heart condition. autopsy reports show his brusies to be on his legs, buttocks, arms, etc., and that there was no trauma suffered to any internal organs. chemical spray would have done very little to subdue a man jacked up on PCP. i took this quote off a web page detailing the strengths and weaknesses of various forms of non-lethal froce used my police and other civil servants.


the plain and simple facts are that this man attacked two police officers, and was subdued in a completely legal way. with his heart condition combined with the drugs he was on, it was only a matter of time before this man died.

Exactly.

Add cocaine (also found in his system) to the PCP and you've got an extremely dangerous man to deal with. Its a known fact that someone on PCP can break handcuffs and chemical sprays are virtually useless...these officers did what they had to do to subdue a man who was a danger to himself and everyone around him at the time.
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Old 12-03-2003, 01:28 PM   #19
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Dread with the title of the thread i assumed that you thought this was another rodney King. I assumed wrong, but your title should have been qouted to the person who said it, thereby making not your own.

I just watched the coroners press conference, he said this man had the PCP the coc the enlarged heart and the obesity also he said he had embalming fluid or methonal in his system. And he said it was alot of it.

The CPR thing, dread, the cops turned him on his side, and the cororner said it wouldnt have mattered anyway, but i guess that besides the point.

Was he not breathing after the attack, i was under the impression that he died at the hospital and he was still breathing at the scene.

Also the handcuffs, it would have taken 3 pairs of handcuffs to shackel him.
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Old 12-03-2003, 02:54 PM   #20
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I was under the impression he was not breathing at the scene...maybe I am wrong...and its all good
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