This is going to be an extremely long post. Sorry.
Irvine, I don't see what point you're trying to make. Aren't we having a debate about homosexual sex? Of course the term a man laying with another man means sex. That's the point that I'm getting at. You have to talk about sex to talk about sexuality.
Melon: First off, you said "The lessons learned in the Bible transcend literal "male" and "female" gender roles." This is totally false. Have you read the verses on marriage? There are very distinct roles that the male and female are to play and there are very distinct guidelines laid out for each as well. I'm asking for verses that are similar, but meant for a homosexual relationship, either between men or women, and you have yet to produce those for me. Even if the 1 and 2 Samuel verses are about a homosexual relationship, it's simply a story about one, not any guidelines or expressed wisdom on how a homosexual relationship should work Biblically. Just because a story of a supposed homosexual relationship may be included, doesn't mean God approved of it. My question to you, which I'll ask you again, is if such verses are found in the Bible for heterosexual relationships (which is even compared to Christ's relationship with the church), and homosexuality is approved by God, which is what you're trying to get at, then where are the verses that support that? The whole Bible is about relationships of all kinds, yet there are NO verses on how a homosexual man or woman should love their partner in the boundaries of their relationship. The verses in the two books of Samuel don't offer any advice, they simply, if you interpret them that way, tell of a homosexual relationship. So what.
The copied text below is from Joe Dallas' comments on that link I provided earlier. I think you'll find that citing the verses about Sodom and Gomorrah are not useless in this debate. Then near the bottom, is a response to your comments on Romans 1.
However, before you read that, I must say this — Romans 2 does talk about judgment, you're right. However, to say something is wrong or is a sin isn't judgment, although many people would like to think that. There are many verses that say as Christians we are to correct those who are not doing what is Godly. Surely, if I am caught up in a sinful lifestyle, I would want someone to tell me so so I could ask for forgiveness and receive salvation. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not passing judgment on homosexuals as people, it's the act or the lifestyle that I am commenting on. Irvine, if you're not aware of it, has expressed in many posts that he's a homosexual. Do I hate him as a person or even consider him to be a bad person? Nope. In fact, I've read many of his posts and I can tell you he's a great guy. I would love to call him my friend. He even commented that if we met we'd probably get along. I agree. My views of homosexuality don't keep me from loving and befriending another person based on their sexual orientation. That's absurd and not Christlike anyway.
We can go on debating this issue, but there's something bigger than it that we all must consider — homosexual or not, we're all sinners. That's Biblical and there's no way to misinterpret it. Believe me, I'm in the upper half of that list too. The Bible says we must all seek forgiveness through Christ by believing he died for our sins, rose again and is our Lord and confessing him as so. I've done so, have you?
The Destruction of Sodom
Genesis 19:4-9
Before they [the angels visiting Lot to judge the wickedness of Sodom and determine whether or not to spare it] had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them [lit., 'so we may know them']." Lot went outside to meet them... and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men... ." ...And they said, "We'll treat you worse than them."
Traditional Position:
The men of Sodom were attempting homosexual contact with Lot's visitors. Sodom was subsequently destroyed for its great wickedness, homosexuality playing a major role in its destruction.
Pro-Gay Argument #1:
Sodom was destroyed because of the inhospitality of its citizens, not because of homosexuality.
Professor John Boswell, in Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality (University of Chicago Press 1980), supports this view, basing it on two assumptions: first, that Lot was violating Sodom's custom by entertaining guests without the permission of the city's elders,[75] thus prompting the demand to bring the men out "so we may know them"; second, that the word "to know" did not necessarily have a sexual connotation.
The Hebrew word yada appears 943 times in the Old Testament; it carries a sexual meaning perhaps 10 of those 943 times. The argument, then, is that the men of Sodom had no sexual intentions towards Lot's visitors.
Response:
The argument makes no sense in light of Lot's responses. His first response, "Don't do this wicked thing," could hardly apply to a simple request to "get to know" his guests. His second response is especially telling: he answered their demands by offering his two virgin daughters- another senseless gesture if the men wanted only a social knowledge of his guests. And why, if these men had innocent intentions, was the city destroyed for inhospitality? Whose rudeness was being judged-Lots', or Sodom's citizens?
The theory raises more questions than it answers. While Boswell and Bailey are correct in pointing out the seriousness of inhospitality in Biblical times, inhospitality alone cannot account for the severity of Lot's response to the men, or for the judgment that soon followed.
Pro-Gay Argument #2:
Sodom was destroyed for attempted rape, not homosexuality.
This argument is more common; it is proposed by lesbian author Virginia Mollenkott and others, and is far more plausible than the "inhospitality" theory.
"Violence-forcing sexual activity upon another- is the real point of this story," Mollenkott explains.[76] Accordingly, homosexuality had nothing to do with Sodom's destruction; had the attempted rape been heterosexual in nature, judgment would have fallen just the same. Violence, not homosexuality, was being punished when Sodom fell.
Response:
The argument is partially true; the men of Sodom certainly were proposing rape. But for such an event to include "all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old," homosexuality must have been commonly practiced. Mollenkott makes a persuasive case for the event being much like a prison rape, or the kind of assaults conquering armies would commit against vanquished enemies,[77] but her argument is weakened by Professor Thomas Schmidt's cited evidence in early literature connecting Sodom with more general homosexual practices:
The second-century BC Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs labels the Sodomites 'sexually promiscuous' (Testimony of Benjamin 9:1) and refers to 'Sodom, which departed from the order of nature' (Testament of Nephtali 3:4). From the same time period, Jubilees specifies that the Sodomites were 'polluting themselves and fornicating in their flesh' (16:5, compare 20:5-6). Both Philo and Josephus plainly name same-sex relations as the characteristic view of Sodom.[78]
Pro-Gay Argument #3:
The real sins of Sodom, according to Ezekiel 16:49, were that it was "arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." These have nothing to do with homosexuality.
Response:
Again, the argument is partially true. When Sodom was destroyed, homosexuality was only a part-or symptom-of its wickedness. Romans Chapter One gives a similar illustration, describing the generally corrupt condition of humanity, while citing homosexuality as a symptom of that corruption. But Ezekiel also says of the Sodomites: "They were haughty and did detestable things before me" (16:50). The sexual nature of these "detestable" things is suggested in 2 Peter 2:6-7:
If he [God] condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men...
And again in Jude 7:
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Dr. Bruce Metzger of Princeton Theological Seminary mentions other references to Sodom's sexual immorality in 3 Maccabees 2:5: "the people of Sodom who acted arrogantly, who were notorious for their vices." And again in Jubilees 16:6: "the uncleanness of the Sodomites."[79]
The pro-gay interpretation of Sodom's destruction has some merit: homosexual rape was attempted, and the Sodomites were certainly guilty of sins other than homosexuality. But in light of the number of men willing to join in the rape, and the many other references, both Biblical and extra-Biblical, to Sodom's sexual sins, it is likely homosexuality was widely practiced among the Sodomites. It is also likely that the sin for which they are named was one of many reasons judgment finally fell on them.
The Levitical Law
(Leviticus 18:22; 20:13)
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable [or, 'an abomination'].
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable [or, 'an abomination']. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Traditional Position:
Under Levitical Law, homosexuality was one of many abominable practices punishable by death.
Pro-Gay Argument:
The practices mentioned in these chapters of Leviticus have to do with idolatry, not homosexuality.
The Hebrew word for "abomination," according to Boswell, has less to do with something intrinsically evil and more to do with ritual uncleanness.[80] The Metropolitan Community Church's pamphlet, "Homosexuality: Not A Sin, Not A Sickness," makes the same point:
The (Hebrew word for abomination) found in Leviticus is usually associated with idolatry.[81]
Gay author Roger Biery agrees, associating the type of homosexuality forbidden in Leviticus with idolatrous practices. Pro-gay authors refer to the heathen rituals of the Canaanites-rituals including both homosexual and heterosexual prostitution-as reasons God prohibited homosexuality among His people. They contend homosexuality itself was not the problem, but it is association with idolatry and, at times, the way it was practiced as a part of idol worship. In other words, God was not prohibiting the kind of homosexuality we see today; He forbade the sort which incorporated idolatry.
Response #1:
The prohibitions against homosexuality in Leviticus 18 and 20 appear alongside other sexual sins-adultery and incest, for example-which are forbidden in both Old and New Testaments, completely apart from the Levitical codes. Scriptural references to these sexual practices, both before and after Leviticus, show God's displeasure with them whether or not any ceremony or idolatry is involved.
Response #2:
Despite the UFMCC's contention that the word for abomination (toevah) is usually associated with idolatry, it in fact appears in Proverbs 6:16-19 in connection with sins having nothing to do with idolatry or pagan ceremony:
There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable [an abomination or toevah] to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
Idolatry plays no part in these scriptures; clearly, then, toevah is not limited to idolatrous practices.
Response #3:
If the practices in Leviticus 18 and 20 are condemned only because of their association with idolatry, then it logically follows they would be permissible if they were committed apart from idolatry. That would mean incest, adultery, bestiality and child sacrifice (all of which are listed in these chapters) are only condemned when associated with idolatry; otherwise, they are allowable. No serious reader of these passages could accept such a premise.
And in response to your view of Romans 1.
Pro-Gay Argument #2:
This scripture describes people given over to idolatry, not gay Christians who worship the true God.
Perry states:
The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1: 24- 27 were believed to result from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such acts are significantly different than loving, responsible lesbian and gay relationships seen today.[84]
Response:
Idolatry certainly plays a major role in Romans Chapter One. Paul begins his writing by describing humanity's rebellion and decision to worship creation rather than the Creator. The pro-gay theorist seizes on this concept to prove that Paul's condemnation of homosexuality does not apply to him-he does not worship idols, he is a Christian.
"But," Schmidt cautions, "Paul is not suggesting that a person worships an idol and decides therefore to engage in same-sex relations. Rather, he is suggesting that the general rebellion created the environment for the specific rebellion. A person need not bow before a golden calf to participate in the general human denial of God or to express that denial through specific behaviors."[85]
A common sense look at the entire chapter bears this out. Several sins other than homosexuality are mentioned in the same passage:
Fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers; backbiters, haters of God, disobedient to parents.... (vv 29-30)
Will the interpretation applied to the verse 26-27 also apply to verses 29-30? Any sort of intellectual integrity demands it. If verses 26-27 apply to people who commit homosexual acts in connection with idolatry, and thus homosexuals acts are not sinful if not committed in connection with idolatry, then the same must apply to verses 29-30 as well.
Therefore, we must assume that fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness et al are also condemned by Paul only because they were committed by people involved in idolatry; they are permissible otherwise.
Which is, of course, ridiculous. Like homosexuality, these sins are not just born of idol worship; they are symptomatic of a fallen state. If we are to say homosexuality is legitimate, so long as it's not a result of idol worship, then we also have to say these other sins are legitimate as well, so long as they, too, are not practiced as a result of idolatry.