Stanley Tookie Williams

[hiphop]

Why grant martyrdom to these tyrants by killing them? I often prefer the fate granted to Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy. He was given a life sentence, and spent the last 21 years of his life sentence completely alone, left to degenerate into madness until the ripe old age of 93. Execution would have been the easy way out for him.

To be fair, I also should add that the quoted Jesuit authors who wrote about the tyrants only excused killing if there was no other possibility - so to say, no other way to get rid of them. Means, if you can overthrow them and they rot in prison, that´s always better than killing them. What if you can´t overthrow them, can´t catch them, can´t put them in prison? As to Hitler, some tried to assassinate him, but did not succeed. (If they had succeeded) I don´t think anyone would be opposed to the assassination, given the history of WWII.

Indeed, the discussions of the Jesuits also focused on the problem what would happen when the tyrant was removed; one could say that action against a tyrant would only be supported when the chances for success were high enough, basically to avoid unnecessary bloodshed.

 

[melon]

Thank you for the compliment....I usually vote Republican.

...

You should read the book "ATLAS SHRUGGED"

I guess this explains a lot of your attitude. Sorry, you can't just go and kill everyone in your way. Ayn Rand's world is not the real world.

Melon

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that rational self-interest has merits above Christian compassion. Furthurmore I would seriously question where one could find blatant justification for murder in objectivism.

 

[diamond]

Diamond, if God means something to you, how is it that the death penalty is acceptable?

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/dennisprager/2003/11/04/170335.html

db9

 

[AliEnvy]

Well it was said by Jesus. But it's widely misinterpreted.

It was stated when a disciple drew his sword and cutt off the ear of a soldier.

Which holds the biggest irony, for if Jesus ever wished any vengence or violent justice it would have been against those who wrongly punished him.

Thank you for clarifying...sounded like an Old Testament line...now we're headed in the right direction but I really want to hear from the pro-death penalty Christians on this. Personally I read that as a description of karma.

There's got to be more to it than that?

This one line twisted out of context trumps all the rest of Jesus' teachings?

 

[BVS]

...I also love being right. Deep down inside..in places you don't talk about at parties...you know I am right.

Way to avoid any real debate.

And I'm really sorry if you think this country is "right" right now.

You should read the book "ATLAS SHRUGGED"

Oh, I already have, thank you.

Loved Fountainhead, but don't really care for her philosophy.

 

[BVS]

Seriously Diamond, that's your answer to her question?

Well then I guess you're right AliEnvy, you won't find an answer.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/dennisprager/2003/11/04/170335.html

If those of us who are for the death penalty have blood on our hands when the state executes an innocent man, abolitionists -- now including George Will -- have the blood of innocents on their hands every time a convicted murderer murders again.

Recently, a former Roman Catholic priest imprisoned for child molestation was murdered in prison by a convicted murderer. His blood is on the hands of the abolitionists.


That priest was murdered by that guy for HIS own personal reasons, to say that people who are against the death penalty have that priest's blood on his hands is ridiculous and unfair. Not to mention the fact that the priest never would have been in prison if he hadn't committed those heinous molestations. Maybe we should have just given him the death penalty too, problem solved. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? But why focus on that when you can blame murders in prison on "abolitionists" .

 

[AliEnvy]

I think that rational self-interest has merits above Christian compassion.

If it didn't we wouldn't live in a free country.

Where do you draw the line?

What I'm looking for here is a Christian's perspective on WHY rational self-interest merits above Christian belief in the context of state-ordered execution when there is a viable alternative.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Well in that case it is quite simple, in the context of the state law built off sound logical axioms should take priority over scripture. To preserve the division between church and state a secular legal system must be preserved, I think that religious individuals can recognise the importance of this.

I draw the line anywhere where the issue of God enters the room of governing over society. I think that a sound case against capital punishment can be made without dragging morality fiction into the fray.

 

[AliEnvy]

I think that a sound case against capital punishment can be made without dragging morality fiction into the fray.

I agree...but that's not what my question is about.

Diamond, please explain if/how that article has anything to do with the juxtapostion of a Christian being for the death penalty.

 

[AliEnvy]

I draw the line anywhere where the issue of God enters the room of governing over society.

Ok, let's take it down to the basic question then and get away from God and society for a moment.

You either believe the death penalty is morally wrong or you believe it's the fair price to pay...both viewpoints have validity.

What I want to know is, how can someone who believes it's the fair price to pay AND is Christian, justify it morally?

 

[hiphop]

AliEnvy

you´re not letting it go, are you?

I doubt you will get a serious reply, because generally there is no Christian moral justification for taking someone´s life (except of the case I have been mentioning).

But please, keep trying

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not think Jesus' teachings were necessesarily a set of guidlines by which a government is supposed to operate.

Just my 2 Cents....Give to Ceasar waht is Ceasar's.

 

[hiphop]

CAESAR - not cease-r

I do not think Jesus' teachings were necessesarily a set of guidlines by which a government is supposed to operate.

No one implied that. The question AliEnvy posed is

"What I want to know is, how can someone who believes it's the fair price to pay AND is Christian, justify it morally?"

 

[AliEnvy]

I do not think Jesus' teachings were necessesarily a set of guidlines by which a government is supposed to operate.

Agreed.

But if you are Chrtistian and you believe that the commandments and Jesus' teachings are guidelines by which you should live and guide yourself morally as an individual, supporting the death penalty is in direct contradiction.

Anyone care to disagree?

 

[nbcrusader]

Agreed.

But if you are Chrtistian and you believe that the commandments and Jesus' teachings are guidelines by which you should live and guide yourself morally as an individual, supporting the death penalty is in direct contradiction.

Anyone care to disagree?

Yes. Dread clearly pointed out the difference between personal behavior and what is conducted by the government.

Jesus faced the prospect of capital punishment and never said it was wrong.

The Old Testament gives us both commands of thou shall not murder (personal - Jesus later explained that this included hatred) and calling for capital punishment (as part of a judicial system).

Both points are clearly supported by Scripture.

 

[nbcrusader]

I can tell you the only piece of scripture that they will use and its;

"live by the sword and die by the sword"

because I've seen it offered several times in trying to justify the two conflicting beliefs.

But that piece of scripture say nothing to me about government sanctioned punishment. It speaks to me of lifestyle. If you live the life of a gun toting mobster you will probably die that way.

"Die that way" at the hands of a judicial system that employed capital punishment. The use of capital punishment is consistent with the breadth of Scripture.

 

[nbcrusader]

I repeat...thou shalt not kill.

For those who are tring to lead a Christian life, what part of this isn't clear?

I'm not trying to be confrontational or pick on you in particular, nbcrusader, but I'd honestly like someone to explain to me how they reconcile supporting the death penalty with their Christian ethos.

In a nutsehll, you have taken one part of the Old Testament and ignored another.

If you are trying to lead a Christian life, do not hate others = that is the clear application of "thou shall not kill" as explained by Jesus.

It in no way eliminates the consequences of sin - including a judicial systems imposition of the death penalty.

 

[anitram]

I do not think Jesus' teachings were necessesarily a set of guidlines by which a government is supposed to operate.

Just my 2 Cents....Give to Ceasar waht is Ceasar's.

I agree.

But if we are talking about a set of personal (rather than governmental) guidelines, then does it not stand to reason that many Christians (the most obvious example being the Catholic Church) will be vigorously opposed to the death penalty? Putting aside what they may wish their government did, I can see how one would for personal, religious reasons, find the death penalty immoral. And for all the scriptural reference - well, not all Christians (in fact the majority do not) view the Bible to be the final authority anyway.

 

[BVS]

Jesus faced the prospect of capital punishment and never said it was wrong.

Yes and he was the perfect example of someone innocent dying by the means of capital punishment.

A good reason why it's wrong.

 

[BVS]

"Die that way" at the hands of a judicial system that employed capital punishment. The use of capital punishment is consistent with the breadth of Scripture.

Matthew 26:25, “Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”

Then why didn't he say live by the sword, die by the cross, or the other means of capital punishment at the time?

 

[AliEnvy]

In a nutsehll, you have taken one part of the Old Testament and ignored another.

If you are trying to lead a Christian life, do not hate others = that is the clear application of "thou shall not kill" as explained by Jesus.

It in no way eliminates the consequences of sin - including a judicial systems imposition of the death penalty.

Quote some of the more relevant scriptures, please, this is finally getting interesting lol.

 

[Dreadsox]

I agree.

But if we are talking about a set of personal (rather than governmental) guidelines, then does it not stand to reason that many Christians (the most obvious example being the Catholic Church) will be vigorously opposed to the death penalty? Putting aside what they may wish their government did, I can see how one would for personal, religious reasons, find the death penalty immoral. And for all the scriptural reference - well, not all Christians (in fact the majority do not) view the Bible to be the final authority anyway.

there are many mainstream Christian Churches that have no problem supporting the death penalty.

Do I expect Christians who find it wrong to speak out? Do I expect Christians who see nothing wrong with it to speak out?

Yes to both....

Unless the direction of this thread is to claim that people are not Christian if they support the death penalty.

 

[Dreadsox]

Matthew 26:25, “Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”

Then why didn't he say live by the sword, die by the cross, or the other means of capital punishment at the time?

Was he giving instructions to save lives at that point?

What would have happened had his followers fought right there in the garden? WHo would have carried on the message?

Context?

 

[nbcrusader]

Matthew 26:25, “Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”

Then why didn't he say live by the sword, die by the cross, or the other means of capital punishment at the time?

The cross was only used by the Romans as the cruelest (and talk to a doctor, it really is horrendous) form of capital punishment.

 

[nbcrusader]

Quote some of the more relevant scriptures, please, this is finally getting interesting lol.

Let's start with Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."


In each of the five books of the Pentateuch, there are provisions for capital punishment - covering over 20 different offenses. These provision were given before and after the handing down of the Ten Commandments.


As for the difference between our personal obligations, remember that we are to submit to our government. 1 Peter 2:13-14 tells us "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right."
emphasis added

 

[nbcrusader]

Quote some of the more relevant scriptures, please, this is finally getting interesting lol.

Let's go further. Even Paul acknowledge that he could face capital punishment if he did something wrong in Acts 25:11 "If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die. But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true, no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!" emphasis added

 

[Dreadsox]

For those quoting thou shalt not kill.....

I believe through my readings that the commandment in its original translation is "Thou shalt not murder".

Murder...premeditated....one man against another is not the same as a Government enforcing the law.

 

[BVS]

Context?

Exactly. So why is this the scripture that I see so many use to defend capital punishment?