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Old 04-22-2007, 09:29 AM   #1
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the crisis of young males in a feminised society

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1686784.ece

* Note: contains photos from Cho's package to NBC. --y. *
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:07 PM   #2
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the crisis of young males in a feminised society

That's perhaps the biggest load of crap I've read in awhile.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:39 PM   #3
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Camille Paglia gave a lecture on my campus last fall. She's not much of a public speaker, as she pretty much just talked off the top of her head for an hour and a half, but the good thing I took from that lecture was her call to action for students. If you're not happy with the state of education, you need to be the ones to change it.

At the time, I appreciated her views on education reform, but this article makes her seem like a hypocrite. She spent so much time railing against literary theory, and here she is spewing a bunch of theory. She's doing what many intellectuals are probably doing this week--hiding behind theory and trying to use it to make sense of something we can't possibly understand yet.

As a warning, the article features some graphic pictures, so don't click it if you're not ready to see them.
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Old 04-22-2007, 04:33 PM   #4
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I think there is a lot here in this column Bob Herbert wrote the other day. Any thoughts?

It's funny, discussion of 'women's issues' used to be framed around the "woman question". I'd like to ask: do we need ask a "man question?"

The New York Times
April 19, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
A Volatile Young Man, Humiliation and a Gun
By BOB HERBERT

“God I can’t wait till I can kill you people.”
— A message on the Web site of the Columbine killer Eric Harris.



In the predawn hours of Monday, Aug. 1, 1966, Charles Whitman, a former marine and Eagle Scout in Austin, Tex., stabbed his wife to death in their bed. The night before he had driven to his mother’s apartment in another part of town and killed her.

Later that Monday morning, Whitman gathered together food, water, a supply of ammunition, two rifles, a couple of pistols, a carbine and a shotgun and climbed the landmark 30-story tower on the campus of the University of Texas.

Beneath a blazing sun, with temperatures headed toward the mid-90s, Whitman opened fire. His first target was a pregnant teenager. Over the next 80 or so minutes he killed 14 people and wounded more than 30 others before being shot to death by the police.

More than four decades later we still profess to be baffled at the periodic eruption of murderous violence in places we perceive as safe havens. We look on aghast, as if the devil himself had appeared from out of nowhere. This time it was 32 innocents slaughtered on the campus of Virginia Tech. How could it have happened? We behave as if it was all so inexplicable.

But a close look at the patterns of murderous violence in the U.S. reveals some remarkable consistencies, wherever the individual atrocities may have occurred. In case after case, decade after decade, the killers have been shown to be young men riddled with shame and humiliation, often bitterly misogynistic and homophobic, who have decided that the way to assert their faltering sense of manhood and get the respect they have been denied is to go out and shoot somebody.

Dr. James Gilligan, who has spent many years studying violence as a prison psychiatrist in Massachusetts, and as a professor at Harvard and now at N.Y.U., believes that some debilitating combination of misogyny and homophobia is a “central component” in much, if not most, of the worst forms of violence in this country.

“What I’ve concluded from decades of working with murderers and rapists and every kind of violent criminal,” he said, “is that an underlying factor that is virtually always present to one degree or another is a feeling that one has to prove one’s manhood, and that the way to do that, to gain the respect that has been lost, is to commit a violent act.”

Violence is commonly resorted to as the antidote to the disturbing emotions raised by the widespread hostility toward women in our society and the pathological fear of so many men that they aren’t quite tough enough, masculine enough — in short, that they might have homosexual tendencies.

In a culture that is relentless in equating violence with masculinity, “it is tremendously tempting,” said Dr. Gilligan, “to use violence as a means of trying to shore up one’s sense of masculine self-esteem.”

The Virginia Tech killer, Cho Seung-Hui, was reported to have stalked female classmates and to have leaned under tables to take inappropriate photos of women. A former roommate told CNN that Mr. Cho once claimed to have seen “promiscuity” when he looked into the eyes of a woman on campus.

Charles Whitman was often portrayed as the sunny all-American boy. But he had been court-martialed in the Marines, was struggling as a college student and apparently had been suffering from depression. He told a psychiatrist that he absolutely hated his father, but he started his murderous spree by killing his wife and his mother.

The confluence of feelings of inadequacy, psychosexual turmoil and the easy availability of guns has resulted in a staggering volume of murders in this country.

There are nearly 200 million firearms in private hands in the U.S., and more than 30,000 people — nearly 10 times the total number of Americans who have died in Iraq — are killed by those guns each year. In 1966 Americans were being killed by guns at the rate of 17,000 a year. An article in The Times examining such “rampages” as the Charles Whitman shootings said:

“Whatever the motivation, it seems clear that the way is made easier by the fact that guns of all sorts are readily available to Americans of all shades of morality and mentality.”

We’ve learned very little in 40 years.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse
the crisis of young males in a feminised society

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1686784.ece

* Note: contains photos from Cho's package to NBC. --y. *
I don't want to click on that link because of the photos. Is it somehow saying that men being "feminized" is a reason for this? "Feminized" society? Whatever that means.

That is an interesting article that Sherry posted. Why aren't there female perpetrators of this type of murder? Have there been any of this exact school/college type?
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:15 PM   #6
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Here are a few excerpts. It's a very long article.

Quote:
Camille Paglia, professor of humanities and media studies at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia and author of Sexual Personae, believes Cho is emblematic of the crisis of masculinity in America. “Women have difficulty understanding the mix of male sexual aggression with egotism and the ecstasy of self-immolation,” she says. Or to quote Martin Amis on that other killer, Fred West: he became “addicted to the moment where impotence becomes prepotence”.
Quote:
Paglia believes the school Cho attended would have been no better equipped to deal with frustrated young males. “There is nothing happening educationally in these boring prisons that are fondly called suburban high schools. They are saturated with a false humanitarianism, which is especially damaging for boys.

“Young men have enormous energy. There was a time when they could run away, hop on a freighter, go to a factory and earn money, do something with their hands. Now there is this snobbery of the upper-middle-class professional. Everyone has to be a lawyer or paper pusher.”

Cho is a classic example of “someone who felt he was a loser in the cruel social rat race”, Paglia says. The pervasive hook-up culture at college, where girls are prepared to sleep with boys they barely know or fancy, can be a source of seething resentment and alienation for those who are left out.

“Young women now seem to want to behave like men and have sex without commitment. The signals they are giving are very confusing, and rage and humiliation build up in boys who are spurned again and again.”

The sex, Paglia argues, “is everywhere but it is not erotic”, as can be seen by the sad spectacle of Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears flashing their lack of underwear during a night on the town. “It’s not even titillating. It’s banal and debasing.”
Quote:
Dr James Gilligan, a former prison psychiatrist who teaches at New York University, believes that misogyny and homophobia are a central component of the make-up of violent criminals, who often fear they have homosexual tendencies.

“An underlying factor that is virtually always present is a feeling that one has to prove one’s manhood and the way to do that, to gain respect, is to commit a violent act,” he says. “It is tremendously tempting to use violence as a means of trying to shore up one’s sense of masculine self-esteem.”
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:28 PM   #7
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So in other words young women are sleeping around with so many guys, but if they won't sleep with these young men turned killers it pisses them off, humiliates them and makes them feel rejected- and that's one reason they kill? Ok.

So I guess the "you" that made Cho do it was the collective trampy/slutty young female "you", in addition to any and all specific young females who rejected him in his own mind. That conveniently leaves out the obvious issues he had from a very early age-issues that had nothing to do with sex or females.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:32 PM   #8
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I don't feel comfortable discussing the killer's possible motive and background in this thread where people who have suffered personal loss from this tragedy are posting their experiences and healing process.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:33 PM   #9
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I only posted the excerpts for those who didn't feel comfortable viewing the whole article because of the pictures being posted there. Frankly, I think it's far too soon to be able to draw any conclusions.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:36 PM   #10
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I'm so glad to hear Dr. Gilligan's book "Violence" mentioned. I can't recommend it highly enough. Amazing, profound implications for all sorts of violent conflict from the VA Tech killings to the Paris riots or Darfur. And it's really readable. Get thee to Amazon.com, FYMers!

On a related note, I'm currently reaching out to school systems around where I live to help them with their conflict resolution/peace education curriculum. I'm VERY excited about this possibility and hope that I can be a part of helping kids learn to resolve conflicts and develop the skills to help problem solve some of the challenges we all face as a global community. Do any of my fellow teachers here have something like this at their schools?
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:37 PM   #11
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Originally posted by trevster2k
I don't feel comfortable discussing the killer's possible motive and background in this thread where people who have suffered personal loss from this tragedy are posting their experiences and healing process.
Agreed.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:41 PM   #12
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i think the Paglia article might deserve a separate thread, because it expands the tragedy beyond gun control.

but agreed that this is not the place.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:43 PM   #13
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Well the discussion had already started- I didn't feel it was right in this thread either but I wasn't sure considering yolland mentioned the pictures were in that link but she didn't say it was inappropriate for the thread otherwise. Maybe it can be split off into a separate thread.
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Old 04-22-2007, 07:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Maybe it can be split off into a separate thread.
Yeah, I think a separate thread would be best for this. Carry on.
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Old 04-22-2007, 08:10 PM   #15
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Thanks Miss Moderator.

I wasn't criticizing anyone personally, it is a legitimate topic. I just wanted to see another thread for it.
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Old 04-22-2007, 08:13 PM   #16
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No, you were totally right. I was thinking of doing it previously when the post was originally made, but then got sucked into the back-to-back broadcast of Planet Earth on the Discovery Channel.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:08 AM   #17
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While I don't agree with the premise that the cause is an over-emphasis for women in the education system (which statistically does appear to be a problem with underrepresentation - which may end up being harmful in twenty or thirty years) I think that the allusions to Fukuyama connecting these types of shooting martyrs and suicide bombers is a legitimate point, the mentality is similar as is the profile.
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Old 04-23-2007, 04:22 AM   #18
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I don't see the who "shamed by women" angle running here. Plenty of guys have been shot down, infact lets include everyone here.
Who liked someone who didn't liked you back?
Who has been teased by someone at high school?
Who felt alone and that no one understood you?
Who was stabbed in the back by friends over some issue?
Who was singled out, and made to feel awful?

I pretty much can guess that everyone has at least one of those things above happen to them as a child. ITs called life, and sometimes people get the shaft end, and others live so called "good lives" but everyone gets screwed now and then.
I was teased one year by this guy. He was horrible, and just used to laugh at point at me everytime he saw me. I never knew why and sue i cried about it, i cursed him, wished he got hit by a car and break a leg, but neve rin a million years did i think about getting a gun and shooting him and a shitload of other people.

I don't know enough about the psyche to start assuming or trying to explain Cho's actions, but I feel that people starting to put the blame on bullies (which i do think is a worthwhile issue in itself and definately lead to depression) or other factors misses the issue - he was way more then a put upon young adult.

I also don't like the fact that so called classmates of Cho's are coming out talking about 'hit lists' he supposedly made in high school and also saying 'they knew he'd do something like this' If he was so far gone in high school - what gives? Could lives have been saved?
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Old 04-23-2007, 07:36 AM   #19
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For me I think it comes down to the fact that we all have the final choice to make a certain decision and to act a certain way in response to external forces, unless we have a mental health issue that renders us completely incompetent in that regard. No one forces you to verbally abuse your 11 year old daughter in a voicemail, no matter how much you feel she has pushed you or her mother has. You are an adult man, you make the choice to use those words-that is one end of the spectrum.

And in the extreme Cho made that choice, absent any evidence that he was completely mentally incapacitated. No matter how others treated him and in spite of everything that went on in his head, he had the choice to get help rather than do what he did. At a certain point you have to become responsible rather than expecting others around you to see your problems and get you help for them.

It sure seems to me that he thoroughly prepared for what he did and it was very well planned. If only he had used that energy for good to get himself help, all those people would still be alive. If only. How many ticking time bombs like him are walking around? It's a frightening thought.
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Old 04-23-2007, 07:56 AM   #20
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Bully Rage: Common School-Shooter Misery-by Jessie Klein


"You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," the 23-year old Virginia Tech gunman, Cho Seung-Hui declared before killing 33 people on campus, including himself. "You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people."

We need to listen to Cho's words and heed his concerns as he eerily echoes those of previous school shooters outraged at what they perceived as an unjust school hierarchy that used them as the pariahs to reinforce their own social status and power. Yet in this tragedy, as in past school shootings, authorities ignore the shooters' own explanations for their crimes, instead labeling the horror as merely an aberration. The mental illness that may well have plagued Cho is only a piece of a story. As we mourn the victims of the terror Cho wrought at Virginia Tech, we need also to ask how the bullying he experienced may have pushed him over the edge.

Contrary to the views of experts like Former Homeland Security Director, Tom Ridge, who said Cho was just "deranged," peers of many of the perpetrators of past similar crimes concede that those young men were bullied relentlessly. "Luke was picked on for as long as I can remember," explained a classmate of sixteen-year-old Luke Woodham, who killed his ex-girlfriend and her best friend and injured seven others in the 1997 school shooting in Pearl, Mississippi. "I do this on behalf of all kids who have been mistreated," Luke also declared.

While their reactions were heinous and reprehensible, these are not random, unprovoked acts of violence but rather a common grievance among many American students. Most react more quietly with suicide, depression, anxiety, truancy, and other more self-destructive responses.

Bullying instigated over 40 school shootings that took place during the past decade. Cho, like the other shooters, had difficulty with girls (stalking two who reported him to the police, speaking often of an "imaginary girlfriend," and making many uncomfortable by taking photos of their legs in classes). Like the other perpetrators, he was relentlessly bullied and angry at what he perceived as an unjust school hierarchy that privileges the wealthy. Cho was also bullied as a result of his race: "Go back to China" his peers said to him on one of the rare times he mustered up the courage to speak in class.

This dynamic was also in play at Columbine High School, which until Virginia Tech was the most infamous school shooting. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, age 17 and 18, also did not meet the narrow social expectations expected of them at school. They said they were treated like dirt by fellow students and declared their unwillingness to accept the bullying that seemed to have become a socially acceptable and daily form of violence: "Your children who have ridiculed me, who have chosen not to accept me, who have treated me like I am not worth their time are dead...." railed Eric.

In every school shooting, boys targeted girls who rejected them, boys who called them gay or otherwise belittled them, and other students at the top of the school's hierarchy--white, wealthy, and athletic--and then shot down other students in an effort to reinstate their injured masculinity.

In 1997 in West Paducah, Kentucky, 14-year-old Michael Carneal killed three girls, two of whom had rejected him. The following year, in Jonesboro, Arkansas, 13-year-old Mitchell Johnson and 11-year-old Andrew Golden shot their ex-girlfriends as well as two other girls who refused Mitchell's advances. Mitchell "vowed to kill all the girls who broke up with him" and threatened other girls for even speaking about these rejections. His ex-girlfriend complained that Mitchell was stalking her and had even hit her, but no one responded to her concerns. In Edinboro, Pennsylvania, that same year, 14-year-old Andrew Wurst targeted his ex-girlfriend at a school dance. He threatened her prior to the shooting when she first broke up with him. "Then I'll have to kill you," he said. At Columbine, Dylan and Eric were known to have big problems with girls. Dylan was so shy with girls that his parents paid him $250 to attend the Columbine High School Prom.

Boys are taught to believe that sexual interest from a girl is imperative to affirm their manhood. When boys are rejected by girls, it can bring up fears that they are not perceived by others as strong and powerful and can cause many to doubt their masculinity and heterosexuality. Headlines about Cho confirmed he struggled with these same concerns about his manhood.

Cho also raged against the rich, declaring his shooting a response to the "brats" and "snobs" at his school who were not satisfied with their "gold necklaces" and "Mercedes." Cho, whose parents ran a dry cleaner, seemed to believe that the relentless bullying he experienced was a result of his lower economic status and his race.

In high schools as well as colleges, popular kids tend to be wealthier and the boys at the top of school caste are often perceived as "jocks." Those that don't fit into these categories are often teased, or seen as relatively unimportant or even invisible. The boys who killed generally came from less wealthy backgrounds than those they targeted and almost all of them specifically aimed at those perceived as wealthy and popular: the "jocks and preps" in the school who were also the ones who bullied them. Like Luke, Michael, and Eric & Dylan and many others, sixteen-year old Evan Ramsey, who killed two students and injured two others in Alaska in 1997, had been picked on by popular football players, whom he targeted in his shooting after an argument with one of them.

Classmates at Columbine High School described how the jocks teased Eric and Dylan. "Everyone would make fun of them" said Ben Oakley from the soccer team. And senior Dustin Thurmon, from the Columbine wrestling team repeated what many others expected: "They should have been able to take it."

But children in our schools should not have to take it. Repeatedly, teachers, parents, and other adults and students say that bullying is a normal part of school life, a rite of passage, or simply a case of "boys will be boys" and sometimes "girls will be girls." Yet my research has traced bullying as a cause of almost every school shooting to date and other research shows that bullying can lead to suicide, severe depression and anxiety, truancy, and dropping-out of school. We need to find a way to stop bullying in schools and to refute assumptions that this behavior is normal.

Many shooters blamed adults for not protecting them from daily assaults. Eric Harris continued: "Teachers, parents, let this massacre be on your shoulders until the day you die." He echoed Evan's words who said after his shooting: "I figured since the principal and the dean weren't doing anything that was making any impression, that I was gonna have to do something, or else I was gonna keep on getting picked on."

These shootings are not just aberrations of deranged individuals. They are a reprehensible and unconscionable retaliation to common and real pain felt by students across our nation. Those who solely blame mental illness miss the real concerns about bullying these boys raise, troubles sadly shared by between 25 and 80% of students, according to various studies. We need to examine the persistently cruel school social hierarchies that so many young boys have declared the source of their unbearable misery. Time and again these boys beg for help from adults who either ignore the bullying or impose "zero tolerance" policies--suspending students for any hint of impending violence-- that tend to punish minor infractions which often miss the big picture. Our students must feel more supported and accepted by one another independent of race, class, and success with the opposite sex. Stalking was an issue in many of the school shooting cases, as well as sexual harassment, dating violence, and gay-bashing--some of which were issues at Virginia Tech. These concerns must be taken seriously and never written off as "normal bullying."

Now we flip-flop between ignoring bullying altogether, considering it "normal" and implementing "zero tolerance" policies that don't address the relationships among students and between students and adults. We need instead to create communities in schools and raise awareness of all parties involved including victims, bullies, and bystanders so that school hierarchies are dismantled and students treat each other with sincere appreciation and respect. European countries have implemented such community-oriented programs with national policies that already reduced bullying by fifty percent. The Netherlands launched such a program in over 10,000 schools that spread like wildfire through Europe. Here we are still using zero tolerance with zero evidence that any of it is working. We have no national policies and only scattered efforts that try to improve relationships between students and among students and adults. If we don't listen to the terrifying words sung repeatedly by each school shooter, we are sadly likely to see many more such horrors.

Jessie Klein is a sociology/criminology professor at Adelphi University. She worked in New York City public schools for 11 years as a teacher and social worker. Her forthcoming book is The Gender Police with Rutgers University Press. She is working on a second book, The Bully Society.
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