Should we kill people for not killing people?

[Snowlock]

so are there other criminals/scumbags you'd just assume see lined up and shot into an open grave? what other crimes do you feel are worthy of the death penalty? car theft? robbery? rape? selling pot? certainly these things are burdens on society, should we just kill these criminals too? one strike and you're out?

Irving, you think this dude was a one striker?

And as I said, I wouldn't want it this way all the time, but I'm certainly not up in arms about it now. We're a long way from Kosovo here. I'm mean my God, sometimes I wonder about the perspective of people on these boards. Wasting this guy tomorrow is not going to lead to yellow badges on homosexuals next week.

 

[Irvine511]

Honestly? Why do you think he was following the victims' car?

so the rule of law goes out the window when we have a hunch?

 

[Irvine511]

Wasting this guy tomorrow is not going to lead to yellow badges on homosexuals next week.

no, but see, that's exactly what it does.

 

[Snowlock]

this is an incredibly naive statement.

would that the world were actually this simple. only bad people do bad things, and only good people do good things, and good people never do bad things.

that's how it is in Simple World.

No it's not a naive statement. It's the fact you are either missing the point, or refusing to acknowledge it to further your "agenda". I am not advocating this law. I'm saying this particular guy was a dirtbag, karma's a bitch, enjoy Hell.

 

[Diemen]

Honestly? Why do you think he was following the victims' car?

Robbery was the motive according to the case. So we should kill robbers, now?

 

[Diemen]

I am not advocating this law. I'm saying this particular guy was a dirtbag, karma's a bitch, enjoy Hell.

Except he didn't kill anyone, so that's not exactly karma.

 

[Snowlock]

no, but see, that's exactly what it does.

Oh my god. What planet are you on exactly?? Were you even able to type that with a straight face? Are you in fact saying that we are on the cusp of a totalitarian state equalling at minimum Bosnia, and possibly the Third Reich?

Dude, seriously, shut your computer off, leave the cell phone behind. Hop on a plane to Montana, take one of those dude ranch vacations. You're over-whelmed.

 

[Irvine511]

No it's not a naive statement. It's the fact you are either missing the point, or refusing to acknowledge it to further your "agenda". I am not advocating this law. I'm saying this particular guy was a dirtbag, karma's a bitch, enjoy Hell.

and that's why we don't use emotion and anger and vegence to determine what is and what isn't acceptable punishments for crimes. we have laws for such things in order to ensure that all citizens are treated fairly.

and, yes, if you think all carjackers are sociopaths who'd just assume hack you into little pieces as steal your CD player, then you *really* need to get out and meet some people. it's incredibly naive to think all criminals are the same and all crimes are the same. the justice system doesn't do that, though it seems as if you have no problems treating everyone the same so long as they meet your "sociopath" criteria -- which, by your own words, means they could be a killer or a carjackers. doesn't matter! they suck! let 'em fry!

don't know what "agenda" you're talking about, but the "agenda" i'm sensing from you is one of white suburban privilege.

 

[redhotswami]

Honestly? Why do you think he was following the victims' car?

But it has already been determined that they WEREN'T following that car. He was convicted for the simple charge that he should have ANTICIPATED that his friend would shoot the victim. How in the world could he have anticipated that? They were on their way home!

 

[Irvine511]

Oh my god. What planet are you on exactly?? Were you even able to type that with a straight face? Are you in fact saying that we are on the cusp of a totalitarian state equalling at minimum Bosnia, and possibly the Third Reich?

Dude, seriously, shut your computer off, leave the cell phone behind. Hop on a plane to Montana, take one of those dude ranch vacations. You're over-whelmed.

Snowlock, i never mind what you actually say, but the manner in which you type is incredibly offensive. you really need to tone it down. it's only because i'm able to read past your histrionic melodramatics and see the fact that you are an intelligent person that i respond to your posts.

yes, when the rule of law is applied differently to different people, then this is one of the signs of a totalitarian state. when individual rights are swept aside because people represent "burdens on society," then you have the beginnings of a totalitarian state. the price of liberty is eternal vigilence.

go read some Kafka and then we'll talk, sweetpea.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Except he didn't kill anyone, so that's not exactly karma.

Thank you!

The guy isn't a saint, but he didn't kill anyone so I can't see why on earth he should die for something he didn't do.

 

[CTU2fan]

"Dillard and Steen both testified that there was no discussion that he would rob or kill LaHood and that Brown was acting independently."

This is from the article, and these are I'd guess the prosecution's star witnesses (so I guess Foster is also guilty of having shady friends, let's lynch him for that crime). If the shooter acted on his own then clearly any law treating Foster as an accomplice in this particular crime (not the robberies or other incidents) is unjust.

Here's another story on this:
http://verbal.democracynow.org/2007/8/9/the_case_of_kenneth_foster_texas

Oh and reading this I find out LaHood was white. Wow, shocking development. [/sarcasm]

Googling I can't find exact numbers re: race of jurors, just general statements that the majority of the jurors were white.

 

[Irvine511]

The guy isn't a saint, but he didn't kill anyone so I can't see why on earth he should die for something he didn't do.

come on, he would have killed someone at some point anyway. we just prevented a future crime that we know would have been murder.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Reading comoprehension? CAREFUL. You see where I acknowledge you don't when I say "no, you don't." Someone needs to take their own advice, perhaps.

Sorry, but your response to my first paragraph was plain false.

"You see where I acknowledge you don't when I say 'no, you don't.'" <-- I can't make sense of that, but that could be me.

No that's not how it works normally, necessarily. What about conspiracy cases when the guy who hires another guy gets a longer prison term than the guy who pulls the trigger. Or what about the guy who is serving a life sentance, the same as a killer, when all they did was rob a convenience store three times and got nailed on a three-strikes-you're-out law?

The "three-strikes-you're-out law" is unique to the USA. I think such law is crap, and only adds to the problem that you need more and more prisons. You get a life sentence for stealing some money, or because you didn't pay your ticket the third rime?
This isn't a case where one ordered the other to kill a person.

Yes, they decided to rob some people, which they should, and have been, prosecuted for. But no, their intention was not to kill someone. The reason they had this gun was because you don't go somewhere, raise your fists and say: "Give me all your money, or I'll slap you in the face!"
But that's not important. Important is that the only person who got out of the car and pulled the trigger was Brown. He was the nutjob who killed the person.
To suggest that Foster's intention was to kill a person, or he approved of what happened is non-provable, and assumption is no evidence. So you can't sentence him for that - except you are living in Texas.

We aren't discussing a conspiracy case here.

That's just it, no one I know, and lets not be so silly as to bring race into this, does this. Decent everyday human beings do not carjack. It's the sociopaths and the psychopaths that do this, and no amount of prison time is going to fix them. It's the rabid dog principle.

I didn't bring up race at all.

It was a response to your:

And it's really easy to sit there in your dorm room and judge them on that I'm sure.

You assume, I assume, we both might be wrong.

Your view about rehabilitation, resocialisation and "One time a criminal, always a criminal" is simplistic, generalising and long outdated.

You should do some research on that.
From that article it's not even clear how it exactly came to the stupid idea of going and rob people. Only information is that they got drunk and stoned and decided to go out and rob some people. It's inexcusable to be that stupid, but it's a sad state of affairs to write these people off entirely and wish them all dead.

Dude, I don't know where you got that figure from, be it yesterday or a while ago, it's b.s. How do I prove it? I ride in cars without guns every day. All kinds of people's cars.

As I said, it's a statistic. A statistic doesn't mean that you literally go and count 1, 2, 3, a gun, 1, 2, 3, a gun..., you should know that. But this isn't too important, it should just give a hint that the "Wrong time, wrong place" theory isn't that off.
I've heard about this figure in response to why police is so damn carefully when approaching a car.

 

[BVS]

Wrong place at the wrong time?

HE WAS DRIVING!!!! How could he be in the wrong place when the place was of his choosing?

LOL. That's just rediculous!

And what's even more bizarre, you don't even realize or at least mention the two who really were at the wrong place at the wrong time; LaHood & Patrick. Beyond irony.

There's no evidence the driver had anything to do with this. There's no evidence of knowledge or intent.

Deal with that.

I haven't really mentioned anyone in this thread, so I really see no irony anywhere. The concept of mourning and true justice can be separate issues, sorry you can't see that...

 

[redhotswami]

There's no evidence the driver had anything to do with this. There's no evidence of knowledge or intent.

Deal with that.

I haven't really mentioned anyone in this thread, so I really see no irony anywhere. The concept of mourning and true justice can be separate issues, sorry you can't see that...

BVS I know you're in Texas. Do you happen to know of other cases where people have been given the DP because of this particular law?

 

[BVS]

Decent everyday human beings do not carjack. It's the sociopaths and the psychopaths that do this, and no amount of prison time is going to fix them. It's the rabid dog principle.

This has to be the dumbest statement I've seen in FYM in a long time.

Sociopaths and psychopaths? So you don't think it's possible that a desperate misguided non sociopath is capable of carjacking? And no one can be "fixed" eh? Well then why not kill all criminals.

Like I said, I hope you never get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[martha]

karma's a bitch

Indeed. It does tend to work all ways, not just both. Advocating the state-sanctioned deaths of criminals because you don't like what they did does affect your karma, you know.

Or does karma only enter the conversation to make a point for you?

 

[phanan]

Sociopaths and psychopaths? So you don't think it's possible that a desperate misguided non sociopath is capable of carjacking?

Because teenagers never make mistakes.

 

[martha]

Decent everyday human beings do not carjack. It's the sociopaths and the psychopaths that do this, and no amount of prison time is going to fix them. It's the rabid dog principle.

Care to back this up with anything other than your wishful thinking and blood-lust?

 

[redhotswami]

Yes they robbed that night, but nobody was killed at any of those robberies. How does that make grounds for the death penalty???

 

[BVS]

BVS I know you're in Texas. Do you happen to know of other cases where people have been given the DP because of this particular law?

There was a case that caused some controversy a few years ago that fell under this law but it got overturned. I'd say I was suprised that the law itself didn't get changed after that, but there are too many like Snow that just don't care and are quick to paint all criminals with the same brush.

 

[martha]

That's just idiotic.

Yet most of the death penalty supporters here and in real life are self-described Christians.

 

[Snowlock]

Snowlock, i never mind what you actually say, but the manner in which you type is incredibly offensive. you really need to tone it down. it's only because i'm able to read past your histrionic melodramatics and see the fact that you are an intelligent person that i respond to your posts.

yes, when the rule of law is applied differently to different people, then this is one of the signs of a totalitarian state. when individual rights are swept aside because people represent "burdens on society," then you have the beginnings of a totalitarian state. the price of liberty is eternal vigilence.

go read some Kafka and then we'll talk, sweetpea.

Actually I meant absolutely no offense. I'm just blown away by your attempt to make that leap. It demonstrates a severe lack of perspective that getting outside your normal boundries can help with somewhat. Smoking grass and reading Kafka may make you feel like you're a deep thinker; but you're not. You need out of the apartment or condo or house or whatever you're in.

I know you in particular have the brain power, but you're misusing it. Call it arrogant or whatever, I don't give a shit, but not enough people are left in this "world" who will call someone talking like you are foolish.

I know it's fun to be anti establishment, but you need to grow out of it sometime. You all do.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

I know it's fun to be anti establishment, but you need to grow out of it sometime. You all do.

Why, so we can all be as s-m-r-t and as well informed as you?

No thanks.

 

[redhotswami]

I know it's fun to be anti establishment, but you need to grow out of it sometime. You all do.

It is not a matter of being anti-establishment. It is a matter of seeing injustices and calling the gov't out on them. We're not all anarchists here. If there weren't people like us who see this for what it is and are willing to stand up for it, well then, I'd probably be picking cotton for you right now.

PROGRESS.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Actually I meant absolutely no offense. I'm just blown away by your attempt to make that leap. It demonstrates a severe lack of perspective that getting outside your normal boundries can help with somewhat. Smoking grass and reading Kafka may make you feel like you're a deep thinker; but you're not. You need out of the apartment or condo or house or whatever you're in.

I know you in particular have the brain power, but you're misusing it. Call it arrogant or whatever, I don't give a shit, but not enough people are left in this "world" who will call someone talking like you are foolish.

I know it's fun to be anti establishment, but you need to grow out of it sometime. You all do.

So Europe has to get out more?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Actually I meant absolutely no offense. I'm just blown away by your attempt to make that leap. It demonstrates a severe lack of perspective that getting outside your normal boundries can help with somewhat. Smoking grass and reading Kafka may make you feel like you're a deep thinker; but you're not. You need out of the apartment or condo or house or whatever you're in.

I know you in particular have the brain power, but you're misusing it. Call it arrogant or whatever, I don't give a shit, but not enough people are left in this "world" who will call someone talking like you are foolish.

I know it's fun to be anti establishment, but you need to grow out of it sometime. You all do.

That's all so offensive and rude and such stereotypical thinking. Maybe if you made even a small attempt to see shades of grey in your neat little black and white world you might grow out of that sometime too.

 

[BVS]

Actually I meant absolutely no offense. I'm just blown away by your attempt to make that leap. It demonstrates a severe lack of perspective that getting outside your normal boundries can help with somewhat. Smoking grass and reading Kafka may make you feel like you're a deep thinker; but you're not. You need out of the apartment or condo or house or whatever you're in.

I know you in particular have the brain power, but you're misusing it. Call it arrogant or whatever, I don't give a shit, but not enough people are left in this "world" who will call someone talking like you are foolish.

I know it's fun to be anti establishment, but you need to grow out of it sometime. You all do.

Why are you being such an ass?

 

[Irvine511]

Actually I meant absolutely no offense. I'm just blown away by your attempt to make that leap. It demonstrates a severe lack of perspective that getting outside your normal boundries can help with somewhat. Smoking grass and reading Kafka may make you feel like you're a deep thinker; but you're not. You need out of the apartment or condo or house or whatever you're in.

I know you in particular have the brain power, but you're misusing it. Call it arrogant or whatever, I don't give a shit, but not enough people are left in this "world" who will call someone talking like you are foolish.

I know it's fun to be anti establishment, but you need to grow out of it sometime. You all do.

if you think that calling all carjackers sociopaths and psychopaths is evidence of a clear perspective and deep thinking, then you need to start smoking some grass, my friend.

i don't see how an expectation that punishments meet crimes and that each individual is entitled to the same treatment under the law is evidence of my being sheltered or naive. in fact, it's because i live in the inner city that i know how poor people get screwed, time and time again, by the law and the courts and the police -- and no one cares, because so many people have the privileged "they're trash anyway" attitude -- that i'm actually keenly aware of situations like the one presented in the article.

but i guess that makes me anti-establishment?