No More Bombs for Afghanistan!

[Angela Harlem]

Originally posted by z edge

You should puke. If you seriously value Afghan civilians over our own volunteer military who went over there to wipe out terrorism so you have the freedoms to sit at your little computer and whine, I hope you puke a lot!
........
I believe the whole of the people in Afghanistan at least appreciate us since they have more freedom since the war began.

You place more importance on the lives of the military to those of innocent civilians? I hope you agree they are equal.

As for the last bit, predictable reply yes, but really...Ask the families of the vitcims of these misguided bombs. I wonder how appreciated these efforts are by the people of Afghanistan.

See, my biggest problem is I want my cake and to eat it too. I want to see America eradicate terrorism, but I dont want to see it happen at the cost of innocent lives.

[Achtung Bubba]

Originally posted by whiteflag
And you believe everything you hear on the news??? On FOX news?????

CNN is far more trustworthy, right?

<sigh>

Originally posted by Angela Harlem
See, my biggest problem is I want my cake and to eat it too. I want to see America eradicate terrorism, but I dont want to see it happen at the cost of innocent lives.

That's a noble sentiment, to be sure, but the whole of human history suggest that it's not possible to win a military conflict and have no civilian casualties.

We SHOULD try to do both, certainly, but it's not realistic to expect that we can do both all the time.

So, when we get to that fork in the road, what do we choose? Do we stop our military plans for the sake of civilians (in this case, with the full knowledge that we may be costing other civilan lives via further acts of terrorsim)? Or do we introduce that horrible phrase, "acceptable losses"?

Angela, any realistic analysis of this or any war MUST answer those questions.

[STING2]

Objective skepticism is just fine and important. But the idea that were shooting blindly and being unprofessional, because of a possible mistake where a wedding party is killed is not being objective. Mistakes happen, but there is no other organization that does more than the US military to minimize mistakes.

Many here have lots of trust in the US military because of prior service, friends and family that are in the military, or having grown up in a military family itself. I think that you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the military operates and the professionalism and honesty that exist there on a level, not found in the civilian world. I don't think being critical is unamerican, but I do think it is important to be objective and informed on both sides of the story.

The military continues to operate in the interest of the Afghan people, but mistakes will occur from time to time, just like mistakes occur here in the USA when the Police use force or pursue criminals in high speed chases. There is no evidence that the Afghan population is in a state of fury and anger and about to attack the USA. Again objectively look at what happened and how many people were killed, and the fact that it is not known yet if US forces were even responsible. Compare that to 15 years ago when the Soviets were in Afghanistan and 1.5 million Afghan civilians were killed, followed with about 5 million in refugees. When condititions are bad, refugees start to show up in border countries. As of right now, people are still coming back to Afghanistan, not leaving! Also, shooting from the ground is not necessarily safer than shooting from the air. As I have already illistrated in above examples in this thread, civilian losses happen just as often if not more so in ground combat as apposed to air to ground combat. Targets on the ground are not fired at normaly until there has been other air or ground confirmation that the target is a legititmate target. Extreme cirmcumstances can override this though if one is being shot at. I support the right of our military forces to return fire when they are being fired at! Our forces shot back from the air because they thought they were being fired upon.

The operation in Afghanistan has been very successful and will continue to be in the future by following the strategies that have worked. The current level of violence in Afghanistan has not been this low since the 1970s before the Soviet invasion. The reason for this is the US military and the strategies they employ for creating a secure environment to include hunting down the remainder of the Taliban and Al Quada.

[anitram]

Originally posted by z edge
You should puke. If you seriously value Afghan civilians over our own volunteer military who went over there to wipe out terrorism so you have the freedoms to sit at your little computer and whine, I hope you puke a lot!

That's ridiculous and offensive.

No human life is worth more than another. The idea one should puke because they feel that all life is equally sacred is repulsive.

[z edge]

Originally posted by anitram


That's ridiculous and offensive.

No human life is worth more than another. The idea one should puke because they feel that all life is equally sacred is repulsive.

I don't know where you are from "T.O."
but if your brother voluntered to go and serve your country to try and end the evils that dwell, would you be more concerned for him or the people who reside where he went to fight?

I have been "offended and been subjected to the ridiculous" more than i can count in here.

Obviously all humans were created equal, as said by our Lord Jesus Christ.

But I am sick and tired of the notion (albeit a hidden and cleverly disguised one) that we should sacrifice more of our own to accomplish our objectives. That it is not fair that our technology and superior military have these "advantages" in war.

Forget it.

[z edge]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem


You place more importance on the lives of the military to those of innocent civilians? I hope you agree they are equal.

they are equal, as are all human beings created by our Lord

As for the last bit, predictable reply yes, but really...Ask the families of the vitcims of these misguided bombs. I wonder how appreciated these efforts are by the people of Afghanistan.

Maybe they shouldn't have shot at our planes then
Maybe they would like to be back under the Taliban Regime then
Respectfully, they shot at our planes
I am sorry that we have dead and injured here
but don't shoot at war planes that protect you

See, my biggest problem is I want my cake and to eat it too. I want to see America eradicate terrorism, but I dont want to see it happen at the cost of innocent lives.

Mee too, but it is not a realistic piece of cake

[Angela Harlem]

Bubba and Z edge I agree with both of you mainly. And thats only mainly because there is still this element that doesn't want to accept that you cant achieve such goals without a few losses.

And Sting2, your second paragraph brought up some interesting points. I agree that it is probably very dificult to have a good understanding of the US military if you dont have 1st hand experience. Outside that 1st hand experience is the US public who have a lesser but better level of knowledge to the rest of the world. All us out here only hear and see from a long way off. When an outsider of the States is critical, it is based on a finite amount of information and completely removed from what it is like over there. We also lack the patriotism that I honestly believe contributes to certain reactions to the whole thing. If it were my country, I have no doubt my own personal feelings would be different. As would the American people's if it happened somewhere else. I guess this is slightly sidestepping the issues as patriotism isn't the only factor. There are Americans who are as against it as some from other places, just like there are those all for it who live next door to me. But I honestly think when it has happened to your own people, you certainly have a different view.

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by anitram



No human life is worth more than another. The idea one should puke because they feel that all life is equally sacred is repulsive.

Originally posted by Angela Harlem


And thats only mainly because there is still this element that doesn't want to accept that you cant achieve such goals without a few losses.

Let's all get off our Idealistic Saw Horses, You should all know what Z Edge means. I'm beginning to think that this thread is being hijacked by those pre-pubescent Abercrombie and Fitch Thong wearing Twelve Year Olds whose only glimpse of reality comes through their realization that Kevin from the Backstreet Boys is old enough to be their Dad. Whiteflag, I think you should start six more spin off threads to apologize for the fact that you used the phrase 'two to tango' in public.

Knute Rockne is Greater than Bear Bryant,
L.Unplugged

[whiteflag]

Originally posted by Lemonite


Whiteflag, I think you should start six more spin off threads to apologize for the fact that you used the phrase 'two to tango' in public.

Knute Rockne is Greater than Bear Bryant,
L.Unplugged

I would have never noticed that if you hadn't said something.

Lemonite, if you knew me you'd know that way too late for apologies to do me any good.

Don't be like me, kids (sniff!) Just say no to hackneyed cliches!

[Angela Harlem]

Lemonite, allow me for the 1st time ever to say: what the fuck?
What the hell kind of negative nancy answer is that really? Ideals? This isn't about damn idealism or being on some damn high horse. Those who are opposed to this kind of shit are usually those who ironically are just like you all who support this war in the 1st place. I cant see any justification for senseless deaths in Afghanistan, EXACTLY the same way I still cant see how the fucknuts who flew the plane into the twin towers can justify whatever reason they have for the senseless killing of approx 3000 American people.
If its all about idealism, well colour me idealistic. I think there is something fundamentally fucked about about people dying for some 'cause' or due to 'error'. Go out and get whoever is responsible. But accept there are people who cant get damn used to it when you lose a few on the way. War is something I thank God I am not used to. I dont see how you are either.

AH Unglued.

[John Milton]

I am sick to death of all these people crying for the deaths of Afghan citizens, and then somehow equating it with the moral issues and ethical implications of the War on Terrorism.

Action is needed here. It has always been needed, and action will inevitably, and tragically, cause deaths - many will be the deaths of innocents. This war on terrorism is vital not just for America but for the world entire, and you can not make an omelette without breaking some eggs. The conflict in Afghanistan should not end until the entire regime of the Taliban is wiped out completely. No stone unturned, no possible opportunity left for this evil to envelope the innocent.

Sacrifices must be made. Personally, I believe that our nation is doing a good job. An honourable job. Its out there on the line sacrificing ALL so that the world can be free from Terrorism. And we still have people pontifficating.

John.

[z edge]

Welcome to the forum John Milton Your view is appreciated

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by z edge
Welcome to the forum John Milton Your view is appreciated

An Hey.. We've now got a "Visually Astutely Inferior Individual" joining our Ranks Z Edge.. Take That Diversity!! Hahaha..

I never understood the logistics behind 'Regained'.

Duecing in my Sink,
L.Unplugged

[Salome]

Originally posted by John Milton
and you can not make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

hmmm, but when a wedding accidently gets bombed and 40 people die the question is whether we are still talking about "breaking eggs"

I at least wonder where a line could be drawn of things that are not acceptable

[Achtung Bubba]

Not to be too incendiary, but I have a thought for a line to be drawn:

Three thousand dead, unarmed civilians - civilians that were doing nothing more objectionable than going to work or boarding a commercial aircraft.

When we accidentally kill as many civilians as the terrorists intentionally killed, maybe then we should start discussing where to draw the line.

Just a thought.

Bubba

[speedracer]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Not to be too incendiary, but I have a thought for a line to be drawn:

Three thousand dead, unarmed civilians - civilians that were doing nothing more objectionable than going to work or boarding a commercial aircraft.

When we accidentally kill as many civilians as the terrorists intentionally killed, maybe then we should start discussing where to draw the line.

Just a thought.

Bubba

Don't forget, Noam Chomsky still says we're directly responsible for starving an additional few million Afghanistanians or so.

[Achtung Bubba]

Chomsky may have said that, but so what? He's as extreme to the left as someone like Jerry Falwell is to the right - and, like Falwell, he thinks we got what we deserved on September 11th (for admittedly different reasons).

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I believe Chomsky's a moron.

If one assumes the worst, one would conclude that he's pulling for the other team.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Chomsky may have said that, but so what? He's as extreme to the left as someone like Jerry Falwell is to the right - and, like Falwell, he thinks we got what we deserved on September 11th (for admittedly different reasons).

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I believe Chomsky's a moron.

If one assumes the worst, one would conclude that he's pulling for the other team.

Um, thanks for picking up the sarcasm in my post, Bubba.

I guess I should have noted that a few million Afghanistanians did not starve over the winter due to the relative quickness of the heavy bombing phase of the attack (although Afghanistan does still need help).

[Achtung Bubba]

Sorry.

[z edge]

Originally posted by Salome
hmmm, but when a wedding accidently gets bombed and 40 people die the question is whether we are still talking about "breaking eggs"

I at least wonder where a line could be drawn of things that are not acceptable

I draw the line with people shooting at our planes