MERGED-->The Pope insults Islam + Turkish official compares Pope...

[AussieU2fanman]

I don't understand what the Muslim community wants. They claim they come in love and peace and tolerance and all that mantra, and yet they demand an apology that refutes the very thing they are demonstrating. Personally, I classify the Muslim reaction as 'evil and inumane,' as was so described in the Pope's self fulfilling prophecy of a speech, and im sure everybody else here does to. So what does the Pope apologise for....?

 

[verte76]

I, for one, think the Pope has apologized enough. He's said he was quoting a text and it's not his personal opinion. What's enough?

 

[Irvine511]

the current Pope has said much, much worse things about gay people.

but we don't count.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

I'm saying the Pope shouldn't apologise for ANYTHING given the reaction of the Muslim people. The pope described an aspect of Islam as 'evil and inhumane,' yet this is what various Islamic people were demonstrating in their outcry (with the grenading and murder's etc.) and whatmore, the Koran itself demands it.


* Surah Muhammad [47]:3 says “When you meet the unbelievers on the battlefield, strike off their heads….
* Surah Anfal [8]:12 says “I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the tips of their fingers.”
* Surah al-Nisa’[4]:74 says “Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God….”
* Surah al-Nisa’[4]:56 says “The true believer fights for the cause of God, but the infidel fights for the devil.”
* Surah al-Nisa’[4]:101 says “The unbelievers are your inveterate enemies.”
* Surah al-Ma’idah [5]:51 says “Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.”


The Pope has every right to make those remarks.

 

[Justin24]

I, for one, think the Pope has apologized enough. He's said he was quoting a text and it's not his personal opinion. What's enough?

To shed his blood I guess.

 

[Irvine511]

I'm saying the Pope shouldn't apologise for ANYTHING given the reaction of the Muslim people. The pope described an aspect of Islam as 'evil and inhumane,' yet this is what various Islamic people were demonstrating in their outcry (with the grenading and murder's etc.) and whatmore, the Koran itself demands it.


* Surah Muhammad [47]:3 says “When you meet the unbelievers on the battlefield, strike off their heads….
* Surah Anfal [8]:12 says “I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the tips of their fingers.”
* Surah al-Nisa’[4]:74 says “Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God….”
* Surah al-Nisa’[4]:56 says “The true believer fights for the cause of God, but the infidel fights for the devil.”
* Surah al-Nisa’[4]:101 says “The unbelievers are your inveterate enemies.”
* Surah al-Ma’idah [5]:51 says “Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.”


The Pope has every right to make those remarks.

and while i'm far from any sort of Biblical or Koranic scholar, i'd bet you dollars to donuts that i could find you other passages in the Koran that directly contradict the ones above; and i bet i could find you equally violent quotes in the Bible, and then other passages that would directly contradict those.

scripture means nothing beyond that which we put into it.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

and while i'm far from any sort of Biblical or Koranic scholar, i'd bet you dollars to donuts that i could find you other passages in the Koran that directly contradict the ones above; and i bet i could find you equally violent quotes in the Bible, and then other passages that would directly contradict those.

scripture means nothing beyond that which we put into it.

That's why religious scriptures make no sense. It's up to the judgement of the believer to pick and choose what parts he/she adheres to which is just ridiculous.

 

[BVS]

apparently I am Einstein, now answer the question

You're no Einstein, my friend.

I'm not going to answer the question, and here's my reasoning. Mohammed unlike the other people you asked me is a religious leader. The words of religious leaders have been twisted and turned throughout history.

In this thread, for their religion's sake, everyone is claiming Jesus to be the prince of peace. But tomorrow many of you will be using Jesus' word to justify war and the death panalty. It sickens me.

 

[Justin24]

Do you believe Mohhamed was a peaceful man or did he have to resort to forceful conversion BVS?? Or can anyone answer that.

 

[BVS]

Do you believe Mohhamed was a peaceful man or did he have to resort to forceful conversion BVS?? Or can anyone answer that.

I just stated why answering that question is impossible for me...

 

[INDY500]

 

[INDY500]

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

So the angry looking people in that cartoon represent all Muslims?

 

[AussieU2fanman]

The voilent reaction has been universal and profuse in numbers. I would say that the cartoon wouldn't represent the sentiment of all Muslims obviously, but a large fraction that feel hatred towards us (which is what any good Muslim should feel according the the Koran).

 

[Justin24]

I just stated why answering that question is impossible for me...

How is it impossible would it make you look prejudice? A simple yes or no. And if you want please explain.

 

[INDY500]

So the angry looking people in that cartoon represent all Muslims?

No, but if the demonstrations would've been peaceful they would have deflated the Pope's remarks, instead, the reactions have enforced them.

 

[BVS]

How is it impossible would it make you look prejudice?

READ MY STATEMENT!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I've never read the Koran, but some people here think it's actually filled with nothing but commands to be violent and hateful and wage holy war on "infidels"? I took some religion courses in college, and funny I don't recall Islam being described in that way. And guess what, it was a Catholic college! Can you imagine?

The book is never evil, but the ways in which followers can use and interpret the book for their own nefarious purposes can surely be evil. That's where the problems begin.

 

[Justin24]

Yes his words have been twisted by minds of man. But what he said is written down and the Koran is supposed to be considered perfect and all thats in the Koran is supposed to represent truth correct? So if alot of the words in there are what mohhamed said or what historians have knowladge of his past what would your opinion be. Dont just give a one sentence rebuttal.

 

[Justin24]

I've never read the Koran,

You never read it so how do you know there are not things in there that talk about what to do with non believers?

 

[BVS]

Yes his words have been twisted by minds of man. But what he said is written down and the Koran is supposed to be considered perfect and all thats in the Koran is supposed to represent truth correct? So if alot of the words in there are what mohhamed said or what historians have knowladge of his past what would your opinion be. Dont just give a one sentence rebuttal.

All the same can be said for the Bible, yet everytime I try and claim Jesus to be a peaceful man someone comes into FYM and says he would be supporting the Iraq war, death penalty, or torturing of detainees.

And I've been reading the Bible most of my life, the Koran very little, so if I can't get Jesus right how am I to get Mohammed right?

 

[Judah]

I'm saying the Pope shouldn't apologise for ANYTHING given the reaction of the Muslim people. The pope described an aspect of Islam as 'evil and inhumane,' yet this is what various Islamic people were demonstrating in their outcry (with the grenading and murder's etc.) and whatmore, the Koran itself demands it.


* Surah Muhammad [47]:3 says “When you meet the unbelievers on the battlefield, strike off their heads….
* Surah Anfal [8]:12 says “I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the tips of their fingers.”
* Surah al-Nisa’[4]:74 says “Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God….”
* Surah al-Nisa’[4]:56 says “The true believer fights for the cause of God, but the infidel fights for the devil.”
* Surah al-Nisa’[4]:101 says “The unbelievers are your inveterate enemies.”
* Surah al-Ma’idah [5]:51 says “Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.”


The Pope has every right to make those remarks.

Sir or madam, you have a choice. You can continue to believe and perpetuate misconceptions about Islam and the above-noted Surahs, or you can educate yourself first further on these things.

I don't know how many times such things about the Quran or Islam have been posted in the past six months...and it's always without context and it's always accusatory and it's always an "us against them" mentality.

Please go here for more context...or take some Religious Studies classes or, you know, God put Google on this earth for a reason. Use it:

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/war.htm

 

[verte76]

I'm going to get hold of a copy of the Koran. I've never read it either, and I should.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

I've never read the Koran, but some people here think it's actually filled with nothing but commands to be violent and hateful and wage holy war on "infidels"? I took some religion courses in college, and funny I don't recall Islam being described in that way. And guess what, it was a Catholic college! Can you imagine?

The book is never evil, but the ways in which followers can use and interpret the book for their own nefarious purposes can surely be evil. That's where the problems begin.

What do you imagine these passages mean then? In any context they look evil and malevolant. There are no passages in the Bible which tells Christians to cut off the heads of Muslims or Hindus in any direct or indirect way. The message that is being presented in the Koran is totally unequivocal.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

You never read it so how do you know there are not things in there that talk about what to do with non believers?

I never said there are not those things in there. But that doesn't equal that all Muslims are hateful, war mongering people who want to kill non-believers. I can't stand when The Bible is misused and misinterpreted to justify hatred, or when Christians are all portrayed in a certain way because of the actions and beliefs of a few. So coming from that standpoint, and from one of reason, no one will ever convince me to feel any certain way about Muslims or about Islam. Certainly not because of what is contained in The Koran.

Have you read it?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

http://forum.interference.com/t165240.html

 

[Justin24]

All the same can be said for the Bible, yet everytime I try and claim Jesus to be a peaceful man someone comes into FYM and says he would be supporting the Iraq war, death penalty, or torturing of detainees.

And I've been reading the Bible most of my life, the Koran very little, so if I can't get Jesus right how am I to get Mohammed right?

When I speak of my support I myself dont God into context, for it's my own beliefe that a murderer should face death for killing one of God's Children.

I never use god to justify a war.

I'll do this for you BVS. I will buy a copy of the Koran and read it and then tell you if you if I found any passages from Mohhamed advocating war and death.

 

[BVS]

I'll do this for you BVS. I will buy a copy of the Koran and read it and then tell you if you if I found any passages from Mohhamed advocating war and death.

But that isn't enough, like Yolland has pointed out a few times, context is key. You would also have to study the historical context. The OT advocates war and violence many times, but the verses can't be used now.

Reading it alone won't help you, just like any other religion. That's why all of these people who are cut and pasting from websites have very little knowledge of what they are talking about.

 

[Justin24]

So then how can you not say then that the Koran does not teach violence and to cause harm to the infidels?

 

[BVS]

So then how can you not say then that the Koran does not teach violence and to cause harm to the infidels?

The better question to be asking yourself is how can these people who've never read a page one except for some ill conceived cut and paste emails know for sure that it does?

I've studied the Koran, but like I said not extensively. But I have some very good friends who have studied the Koran all their lives, very educated, very dedicated... I wish they could post in here they would have wiped the floor clean with some people in here.

And as much as they've studied the Koran not once have they felt obligated to "join the movement". Unbelievable isn't it?