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Old 01-07-2008, 05:45 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


I don't understand what's so vague about his positions. He's made his health care plan clear, as he's had to defend it from attack from Clinton. He's made it clear that he wants to begin withdrawing from Iraq. He intends to initiate steps in fighting human-caused global warming. He believes that civil unions should be available to homosexuals, and that the only thing left up to states should be the actual "title of marriage" (which is not everything I want, but a big step nonetheless). Those are major changes he wants to bring about. What's vague there?
I think this may be 2861 when listening to Democrats...

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Old 01-07-2008, 05:46 PM   #202
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Originally posted by 2861U2
Maybe I'm the only one who realizes that this is one of the most crucial times in America's history, and electing someone like Obama who has no foreign policy experience just doesn't sound all that appealing to me.

Oh don't worry, though. I'm not scared. Bring him on. When the Obama hype wears down, and the Democrats are left with this guy as their candidate, I don't think they'll be real confident. When the general election rolls around, his record and experience (or lack thereof) will come out, and he'll have nothing to say in response. But if you want me to stop with the Obama "attacks," fine, I'll stop. You can just go on living in your little world where everyone agrees with you and you can all celebrate how perfectly flawless and qualified in every way to be president Obama is.


Oh, and about the Hitler thing, in the past 3 days alone here I've seen Obama compared to RFK, JFK, Martin Luther King Jr, Abraham Lincoln, and Jesus.

Yet electing someone who's experience is a series of shit performance was a good move? I call shenanigans.

And, funny thing, the GOP has a crop of candidates that is horrible. Even if the "hype" of Obama wears down ... his opponents will still be easily defeatable.

And for your last point ... uh ... . I don't think you know much about World War II and Nazi Germany, do you?
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:47 PM   #203
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Hi all. Friendly reminder. For the sake of keeping the discussion civil and on track, can we please refrain from bandying about inflammatory words like Hitler, Nazi, etc.? It's hardly useful.

Also, just a reminder to also keep from personal attacks.

Thanks.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:50 PM   #204
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Originally posted by 2861U2



Maybe I'm the only one who realizes that this is one of the most crucial times in America's history,
Yeah, somehow you are so intelligent that you use a Hitler comparison, but somehow you are smart enough to be the only one that realizes this... yeah I'm sure it's that.
Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

Oh don't worry, though. I'm not scared. Bring him on. When the Obama hype wears down, and the Democrats are left with this guy as their candidate, I don't think they'll be real confident. When the general election rolls around, his record and experience (or lack thereof) will come out, and he'll have nothing to say in response. But if you want me to stop with the Obama "attacks," fine, I'll stop. You can just go on living in your little world where everyone agrees with you and you can all celebrate how perfectly flawless and qualified in every way to be president Obama is.
I'm not asking you to stop anything. Attack all you want, but at least do it in an intellectual way. You've yet to do that.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

Oh, and about the Hitler thing, in the past 3 days alone here I've seen Obama compared to RFK, JFK, Martin Luther King Jr, Abraham Lincoln, and Jesus.

And your point? Try finishing a thought for once.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:52 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

Maybe I'm the only one who realizes that this is one of the most crucial times in America's history, and electing someone like Obama who has no foreign policy experience just doesn't sound all that appealing to me.
Compared to what - George W Bush's wealth of foreign policy experience circa 2000?
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:54 PM   #206
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Wow, just wow... You just lowered the collective conservative IQ 10 points.
What, from redneck to knuckledragger? Still preferable to being an elitist liberal in my book.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:56 PM   #207
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What, from Redneck to knuckledragger? Still preferable to being an elitist liberal in my book.
Are you trying to defend him?

Because if you're not, well, you missed the point.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:58 PM   #208
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Originally posted by INDY500


What, from Redneck to knuckledragger? Still preferable to being an elitist liberal in my book.
Well if you think the bar started at Redneck?

Oh, come on you have enough elitism in you, I've seen it come out now and then.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:01 PM   #209
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In the 2000 debates, Gore was more pro-war than Bush. What Bush did in Iraq in 2002 was in fact known as "the Clinton Doctrine."

Obama is very mainstream in terms of positions, advisors, etc. , and I still agree with Kucinich more than anyone. Yet I am now a huge Obama fan.

What is amazing about him is his authenticity and charisma and the way he can schmooze with without seeming slimy.

I am watching him on C-span right now, and he just shook a little girl's hand and said "I have a nine year old, and she is pretty just like you." That would and could be cheesy but he makes it real.

He so reminds me of Bono the way he works the hand-shaking thing, and for some amazing reason, manages not to come off as fake.

Now a Republican is calling C-Span to say he really likes Obama. That just freaks me out in a good way.

About why I like Huckabilly: it's his honesty, his populism, his charm: he's not one of 'them'.

No, I don't agree with him. I am anti-war, pro-choice, and pro-gay-rights.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:12 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
Hi all. Friendly reminder. For the sake of keeping the discussion civil and on track, can we please refrain from bandying about inflammatory words like Hitler, Nazi, etc.? It's hardly useful.

Also, just a reminder to also keep from personal attacks.

Thanks.
Fair enough. I apologize. I retract my statement, if at all possible. And no, it's not just because people have called me out on it. What I said was stupid, and I apologize.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:16 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by Earnie Shavers


Compared to what - George W Bush's wealth of foreign policy experience circa 2000?
We live in very different times than we did in 2000. Radical Islam was not a major focus the way it is today. I would say Americans fear terrorism much more than in 2000. Since then, 9/11 happened and the subsequent wars have developed. In my opinion, foreign policy experience is always important to have, but even moreso right now. In 2000, I don't think foreign policy knowledge was quite the crucial criteria that a lot of people see it as today, or at least I do.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:31 PM   #212
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Does my blue guy in a red state cancel out your red guy in a blue state?

Can't we just all be purple?
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:39 PM   #213
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Wow. Just wow. I come to FYM for the discussion, but I stay for the

Holy shit....

And regarding radical Islam..you're joking, right?

Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


We live in very different times than we did in 2000. Radical Islam was not a major focus the way it is today.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:43 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


We live in very different times than we did in 2000. Radical Islam was not a major focus the way it is today. I would say Americans fear terrorism much more than in 2000. Since then, 9/11 happened and the subsequent wars have developed. In my opinion, foreign policy experience is always important to have, but even moreso right now. In 2000, I don't think foreign policy knowledge was quite the crucial criteria that a lot of people see it as today, or at least I do.
Yes we live in different times, although we've helped create those different times. But W's experience didn't somehow change drastically from when he was brought in to 9/10, 2001. And you've been fine with his performance. You also don't seem to understand that Presidents hire cabinet members who apparently are experts in their fields. I really don't see Obama hiring cabinet members who don't even know what a Sunni is to be dealing with the Middle East, like our current president.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:52 PM   #215
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And while I completely disagree with the common belief that Bush is an idiot, the stories about him having close to zero intellectual curiosity seem all too common to not at least have some truth to them. Don't know if you could say that about Obama.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:58 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by Earnie Shavers
And while I completely disagree with the common belief that Bush is an idiot, the stories about him having close to zero intellectual curiosity seem all too common to not at least have some truth to them. Don't know if you could say that about Obama.
Why do you disagree that Bush is an idiot?
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:19 PM   #217
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you know what would be great? if it were McCain vs. Obama, we'd have an actual discussion on what to do about global warming and not this "needs more study" garbage.

that's exciting.

but i do worry about McCain's chances after New Hampshire. sure, he's winning by about 6 points, but he beat Bush here in 2000 by 18 points. and he has no prayer in South Carolina.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:20 PM   #218
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and as for Obama's foreign policy experience, i think he has much more than Romney, Giuliani, and Huckabee (who's fretting about Pakistanis coming over the border).

yes, i'd agree that McCain has more experience, but i don't agree that he has better judgment.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:25 PM   #219
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Quote:
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and as for Obama's foreign policy experience, i think he has much more than Romney, Giuliani, and Huckabee (who's fretting about Pakistanis coming over the border).

yes, i'd agree that McCain has more experience, but i don't agree that he has better judgment.
It's funny you should mention experience and judgement. I was watching a rerun of the Daily Show tonight, and Obama was the guest. He brought up a great point of how most people who talk about wanting an experienced leader mean they want one who has better judgement. Yet, experience, does not mean good judgement. Obama said we probably all know older people, 50-60-70, years old who supposedly have "experience", yet they continue to make poor decisions and cause pain in their lives. It's no different as a government leader. As has been said over and over again, including by Obama on this particular Daily Show interview, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld had years of "experience" in their past, yet they've showed nothing but extremely bad judgement in the past few years. They literally are walking advertisements that experience means nothing when it comes to judgement. Experience, in my opinion, can lead to bad judgement because it can create a false sense of confidence, which is really arrogance. It becomes an attitude of, "I've done this years, I know what I'm doing" that leads to ignoring reason and logic and acting impulsively based on what's worked in the past or what solution seems best at the time. That may work sometime, but most of the time it leads to disaster as evidenced by many of the decisions of the "experienced" Bush administration. A lack of experience, on the other hand, can lead to better judgement for the opposite reason. It forces you to consider all the options, and employ reason and logic simply because there is no prior knowledge to fall back on. Does this always lead to a correct decisions? Of course not, but I believe it has more of a chance.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:37 PM   #220
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true enough.

arrogance sometimes comes across as experience.
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