Let's "understaaaand" our terrorist brothers.

[Sonoftelepunk]

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And you have become just as consumed in your hatred for them. That's just as dangerous. That's exactly what Christ was talking about.

If you think that hating terrorists and terrorism is dangerous and wrong, then you belong in their midst.

 

[BVS]

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If you think that hating terrorists and terrorism is dangerous and wrong, then you belong in their midst.

See now you are twisting words. Shameful. No where did I say I don't hate terrorism. A weapon of the conservatives, you're with us or against us. You got sucked in hook line and sinker.

But yes hating anyone is dangerous, even your enemy. So I guess Christ and I will be in their midst.

 

[Iskra]

Apparently shooting, bombing and attacking the terrorists isn't helping or stopping them.
Bombing for Peace is like Fucking for Virginity.
Keep on invading countries.
Keep kicking the beehive and then wonder why you got stung.
Where I went to school we took redeneck undeducated fools and tried to better them not put them in charge.

 

[Dreadsox]

Where I went to school we took redeneck undeducated fools and tried to better them not put them in charge.

This was uncalled for.....

 

[Sonoftelepunk]

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See now you are twisting words. Shameful. No where did I say I don't hate terrorism. A weapon of the conservatives, you're with us or against us. You got sucked in hook line and sinker.

Oh yes, I may have been sucked in by the truth..at least I'm not fooling myself into thinking that not hating terrorists gets me anywhere. It accomplishes nothing. While channeling my hatred for terrorists can rid the world of them, your simperings about their inner self remains inert and worthless.

 

[BVS]

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While channeling my hatred for terrorists can rid the world of them, your simperings about their inner self remains inert and worthless.

But it won't. You will never rid this world of terrorism this way. It's like killing ants. You will never rid your yard of anthills unless you destroy the queen. You can kill each ant one by one, but they'll migrate build other mounds and keep producing. But if you destroy the queen the anthills dissappear. You will never destroy terrorism this way, you'll just force them into different parts of the world. You have to destroy the root of the problem.

And I'm not sure where you saw any simperings of inner selves in here, for I never made any mention of it.

 

[Sonoftelepunk]

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But it won't. You will never rid this world of terrorism this way. It's like killing ants. You will never rid your yard of anthills unless you destroy the queen. You can kill each ant one by one, but they'll migrate build other mounds and keep producing. But if you destroy the queen the anthills dissappear. You will never destroy terrorism this way, you'll just force them into different parts of the world. You have to destroy the root of the problem.

And I'm not sure where you saw any simperings of inner selves in here, for I never made any mention of it.

Terrorism may not be completely destroyed, but my approach sure as hell combats it better than your's. The root cause is simple, the terrorists are taught to hate from a young age. We have no control over what they are taught by their elders. At the moment fighting the terrorists themselves is the best course.

If they weren't raised to be hateful, then there would hardly be any terrorism. If you have a solution to that, I'd like to hear it.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Islamism is the problem, it is the ideology, the restoration of the caliphate the extermination of the Jews and the subjegation of the unbelievers is all part of that. The means to that end now is to bring about more allied Islamist regimes around the world ~ Saudi Arabia and Pakistan would be the two most dangerous countries to fall. Terrorism is the manifestation of this movement.

Identify the enemy, Islamism. Fight said enemy through use of both hard and soft power and solve the problem that drives wider support for their cause which is autocratic government in the Middle East.

Fighting against terror does not create more terrorists, killing jihadists does not make more jihadists, stepping back and allowing the swamp of despotism to fester discontent among the populace without other means of dissent than violence is the driving force here. Look at who the international terrorists of the world are, we are looking at wealthy men, who have the economic means to travel the world, the education to inflict harm and the ideological zeal that is only afforded by the luxury of not living in abject poverty. The fiction is that the terrorists of the world are the poor and the downtrodden; just look at the recent Harvard study of terrorist attacks around the globe by Alberto Abadie simply did not find such a link, rather factors of political freedom, ethnic conflict and geography played significant roles.

Iraq and Afghanistan will be means to an end in defeating terror not just because a lot of nihilists, fascists and jihadists are killed ~ but because the establishment of democratic society and respect for individual liberty is the only way to prevent the toppling of these already ambiguously hostile governments with more dangerous ones. The increase in terror in both of those countries following the fall of Saddams regime and the Taliban is to be expected; it is reactionary, a concerted effort to subvert and topple elected governments and bring about the types of chaos and sectarian violence from which they can be afforded sanctuary. If they fail to accomplish this before the national democratic governments become entrenched then the gains of terror will be lost and the number of attacks will also decrease. This transitional fluctuation in terror is the direct result of moving towards freer governments.

Don't try to reason with them or contemplate what we can do to appease the anger of jihadists ~ that will not solve any problems, granting concessions will only aid their cause and encourage more violence. Fight them on every front and expose them for what they really are; don't fall into the trap of having your governments policies dictated to by Islamist proxies.

 

[BVS]

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The root cause is simple, the terrorists are taught to hate from a young age. We have no control over what they are taught by their elders. At the moment fighting the terrorists themselves is the best course.

If they weren't raised to be hateful, then there would hardly be any terrorism. If you have a solution to that, I'd like to hear it.

Not all are raised that way. In fact most are recruited during adolesense. Most recruits are poor uneducated men who have very little here on earth so they fall for promises of being rewarded in the afterlife.

If you work on the vast differences of the distribution of wealth, education, and at the same time work with other Muslim leaders to be outspoken about those that distort their religion than we'd be getting somewhere in disolving the root problem.

But it's much easier to hate and bomb. And those will be judged later.

 

[Sonoftelepunk]

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Not all are raised that way. In fact most are recruited during adolesense. Most recruits are poor uneducated men who have very little here on earth so they fall for promises of being rewarded in the afterlife.

If you work on the vast differences of the distribution of wealth, education, and at the same time work with other Muslim leaders to be outspoken about those that distort their religion than we'd be getting somewhere in disolving the root problem.

But it's much easier to hate and bomb. And those will be judged later.

I do see your point there. And while it is important to make sure that Muslim leaders report and discourage those that would spread extremism, fighting those that are extremists with military force is of equal importance too.

 

[A_Wanderer]

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Not all are raised that way. In fact most are recruited during adolesense. Most recruits are poor uneducated men who have very little here on earth so they fall for promises of being rewarded in the afterlife.

If you work on the vast differences of the distribution of wealth, education, and at the same time work with other Muslim leaders to be outspoken about those that distort their religion than we'd be getting somewhere in disolving the root problem.

But it's much easier to hate and bomb. And those will be judged later.

What are you using to support these assertions. Why is it that PLO Arab bombers have a higher mean wealth than average PLO Arabs? Why is it that international terrorists are middle class to wealthy? Which terrorists are you talking about.

 

[BVS]

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Why is it that international terrorists are middle class to wealthy?

The average insurgent, the suicidal bombers are not middle class to wealthy. The leaders of these groups yes but the majority of recruits, no.

 

[A_Wanderer]

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The average insurgent, the suicidal bombers are not middle class to wealthy. The leaders of these groups yes but the majority of recruits, no.

You are talking about insurgency not international terrorism. Average insurgent/militiamen etc. may not be wealthy, I agree with that but I would not count every fighter with a kalashnikov as a terrorist. Suicide bombers drawn from PLO Arab populations come from generally wealthier families than most ~ and there is a significant religious component in that particular case.

And I stand by my assertions of international terrorists especially. The ones who represent an existential threat. They are not driven by poverty and it is daft to believe that by making the world a fairer place that their will to dominate will be quenched.

 

[packcrush]

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[B}
And I stand by my assertions of international terrorists especially. The ones who represent an existential threat. They are not driven by poverty and it is daft to believe that by making the world a fairer place that their will to dominate will be quenched. [/B]

Maybe if we stop; like; I dont know; maybe pissing people off around the world; then maybe they won't want to kill us so much? Somehow I don't think carpet bombing their kids is the correct solution.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Carpet bombing who's kids? Ramzi Yousef's kids, Hambali's kids, Khalid Sheik Mohammed's kids, Zarqawi's kids, Mohammed Atta's kids, Osama bin Ladens kids?

We piss them off by our very existence, as an atheist who freely mocks the idea that an omnipitent God exists I am an insult too their God. As a society the west is too permissive; our women unveiled and promiscuous. Our current foreign policies are really pissing them off because they threaten them. Democracy goes against allah's will ergo it is righteous to them to execute every potential voter. That attitude will not get them far in democracy ~ especially ones where women, gays and religious minorities are allowed to vote.

I am not going to sit back and accept that we deserve to be punished for the sins of others by proxy victims who worship death.

Listen to what these people are saying, don't just project pet causes as motivation because when it comes to matters of faith rationalism and reason have nothing to do with it.

 

[packcrush]

No; they're not "jealous" of our democracy or anything like that. Thats just what the Bush administration spouts at every press conference. We've pissed the terrorists off with our support of Israel; ignored as it violated UN resolutions again and again; treated the Palestinians like crap and so forth. We've annoyed them with US troops stationed in places like Saudi Arabia since after the first Gulf War (who have been removed since 2003); for supporting little puppet dictators like Sadaam Hussein and the House of Saud. The terrorists see Muslim societies like Saudi Arabia and Iraq and being subject to anti-Islamic secular rulers.

Look; I am in no way excusing the terrorists; and I'm not saying that any of the above is "right" or "wrong" by any moral standards; we all have our own views on things like the War on Afghanistan and Iraq; the Israeli/Palestinian conflict etc; but those are the reasons the terrorists do what they do. And I for one believe that if we stopped these things; we'd go a good way to preventing further terrorist attacks upon ourselves.

 

[VertigoGal]

I agree with you packcrush. Terrorism is not in any way justified, but it is a statement on the state of society. Even if terrorists are wrong in what they do, that doesn't mean trying to address the root problem equates to "giving in" or "surrendering." For instance, pouring money into dictatorships, money that the people will never see, breeds economic despair and hatred. While the average person in this situation isn't going to go strap a bomb to themselves, it can allow for a passive support of jihadists. It's the basic concept of guerrilla warfare, needing an environment to exist in, water to swim in, etc.

Anyway, getting back to the main topic, I do agree that the idea of giving terrorists themselves love and compassion is ridiculous. There's a happy medium, and ridiculous statements like this from either side take away from valid points that both sides (left and right) have to make.

 

[A_Wanderer]

So essentially you advocate a policy of appeasement towards Islamic extremists? by giving them what they want then most of them will stop wanting to attack.

I never said that they were jelous ~ I stated that democracy has been declared un-Islamic by these characters on the basis it leaves governance and lawmaking in the hands of man and not by divine revelation. As long as Allah's will is subverted on this planet there can never be peace, and it doesn't matter if it takes centuries because they are certain that their religion will reign supreme.

This leads me to ask the question about what motivates other Islamist groups? In South East Asia some particularly nasty groups exist wishing to establish an Islamic state from Malaysia to Mindanao ~ now I put this too you; what does the treatment of PLO Arabs on the other side of the world, or the support that the US gives to Israel do to bring about these groups terrorism ~ under different banner but allied in cause with Middle Eastern Islamist groups. Why do these groups fight their jihad ~ why do they murder westerners? why do they attack Christians and Buddhists?

 

[VertigoGal]

Oh, not appeasement in the form of just handing DC over to Osama (although that would be an interesting experiment). But negotiating with terrorists is a time-honored tradition (so is claiming not to negotiate with terrorists/communists/etc). We don't necessarily need to call it that, of course, and we should probably keep up the illusion that we won't. But taking actions that will be viewed well by the majority in the Middle East would be beneficial to everyone.

Withdrawing from Iraq as soon as humanly possible, for example. We don't need to say, "We just had a chat with al-Zarqawi and we admit we were wrong, therefore we are handing over the country tomorrow morning." What we should do is get a hugeass poster that says in big, bold letters: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Have a battallion of the Iraqi Army do some flag-raising, speech-making type stuff. Make sure it's on every TV in Iraq. To be honest I don't know what our guys are doing over there other than acting as moving targets. They may carry out some sweeps and operations, but their presence is essentially counterproductive. Not to mention, Bush needs to get the hell out of there in time for 2008's race if they want another Republican in anyway, right?

Basically, we're obviously not going to give in to demands for an Islamic world, but this doesn't mean an improved perception in the ME won't be effective.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

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That's not what he's saying at all, but I'm glad you've talked to him and figured all of this out and judged that he isn't worthy of this country.

And I won't even touch the first part of your post because one it had nothing to do with the thread at hand and two it is so filled with hate that you are beginning to sound like a terrorist.

Why, because I think that it's wrong to give power to people who continually attempt to establish a culture of death amongst our own societies? Yes, I may have been mean-spirited towards Boxer and Singer but I take none of it back. Gere is entitled to live in whatever socialized country he wants as long as they welcome him, and if that suits him, then fine. But I won't have sympathy for the devil like he did.

My god you are so full of judgemental wrath and hatred. It's almost as if your vacation from here filled you with more vileness. The Koran just like the Bible is filled with passages of love and wrath. The Bible just like the Koran can be taken out of context too and provide justification for hatred, murder, and bigotry.

I hit the topic with an iron fist, wishing at heart for more Muslims to speak out against extremist acts of terrorism. I also wished to see a message of positivity from the Koran, which could enlighten the Western mind. I will expose Yassir Arafat as the con man that he was at will. You can call that hatred if you want, but I'm afraid you aren't persuing for truth in the same sense that I am. I demand it, while you seem to assume it.

 

[BVS]

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Why, because I think that it's wrong to give power to people who continually attempt to establish a culture of death amongst our own societies? Yes, I may have been mean-spirited towards Boxer and Singer but I take none of it back. Gere is entitled to live in whatever socialized country he wants as long as they welcome him, and if that suits him, then fine.

No one's giving them power. Reaching out is not giving one power.

But I won't have sympathy for the devil like he did.

He and Jesus. Remember Jesus healed the ear of the one that wanted him head. He's the one that said love thy enemy.

I hit the topic with an iron fist, wishing at heart for more Muslims to speak out against extremist acts of terrorism. I also wished to see a message of positivity from the Koran, which could enlighten the Western mind. I will expose Yassir Arafat as the con man that he was at will.

I too wish more Muslim leaders would speak out. Just like I also wish more Christian leaders would speak out against the hatred for Muslims. I also wish they would teach 'love thy neighbor as thyself', and 'love thy enemy' as well. But so many preach hate.

You can call that hatred if you want, but I'm afraid you aren't persuing for truth in the same sense that I am. I demand it, while you seem to assume it.

You will never find truth with hatred in your heart. Hate is the greatest wall in front of the truth.

 

[melon]

Expecting Muslims to have a moderate to liberal stance on the Koran is like expecting Christians to have a moderate to liberal stance with the Bible. Looking at the climate here in the U.S., that might be too much to ask.

Melon

 

[Macfistowannabe]

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No one's giving them power. Reaching out is not giving one power.

Boxer - elected into office. Singer - given a job as a professor at Princeton. I would never trust my own child around either of them, especially Peter Singer.

He and Jesus. Remember Jesus healed the ear of the one that wanted him head. He's the one that said love thy enemy.

Somehow I just can't see Jesus forgiving an unapologetic scrap like Arafat and all the other haters that wanted Israel destroyed and turned into an Islamic theocracy. The same goes for bin Laden, al-Zarqawi, and all the others who impose "convert or die" on the Wesern world.

You will never find truth with hatred in your heart. Hate is the greatest wall in front of the truth.

You keep dismissing any conservative view on the War on Terror/Iraq as "hate." Heck, any strong opinion you don't agree with for that matter is hate according to you.

 

[BVS]

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Somehow I just can't see Jesus forgiving an unapologetic scrap like Arafat and all the other haters that wanted Israel destroyed and turned into an Islamic theocracy. The same goes for bin Laden, al-Zarqawi, and all the others who impose "convert or die" on the Wesern world.

You keep avoiding the subject by twisting and turning the terminology. Who said forgive? The soldier who's ear was cut off didn't ask for forgiveness, Jesus healed the soldier out of his love, not forgiveness.

You keep dismissing any conservative view on the War on Terror/Iraq as "hate." Heck, any strong opinion you don't agree with for that matter is hate according to you.

No, I have not dismissed any conservative view on terror as hate. I've addressed your views one by one.

 

[melon]

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Somehow I just can't see Jesus forgiving an unapologetic scrap like Arafat and all the other haters that wanted Israel destroyed and turned into an Islamic theocracy. The same goes for bin Laden, al-Zarqawi, and all the others who impose "convert or die" on the Wesern world.

I guess that's why the Pharisees hated Jesus. He didn't amass an army to overthrow the Roman Empire.

Melon

 

[Macfistowannabe]

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You keep avoiding the subject by twisting and turning the terminology. Who said forgive? The soldier who's ear was cut off didn't ask for forgiveness, Jesus healed the soldier out of his love, not forgiveness.

Blah blah blah. This is coming from someone who seems to loathe the very existence of Christian influence in our culture in the first place. Yet, you give islam a free pass. There is a reason I must be skeptical - why does the Middle East seem to loathe democracy? What is in the Koran that suggests that it's evil? I want to know, and all I hear is the sensativity police instead of an honest answer for asking.

No, I have not dismissed any conservative view on terror as hate. I've addressed your views one by one.

So which part of my posts are "hateful?" Because I defined the enemy by the term "islamofascist?" It's a dangerous thing to fight a war without defining who your enemy is. What is Islam? It's the belief that they practice, which could be all well and good without their "convert or die" policy, which obviously defines fascism. One thing is for sure. You can hardly digest the need for the free world to defend itself against those who declared jihad against it.

 

[BVS]

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Blah blah blah. This is coming from someone who seems to loathe the very existence of Christian influence in our culture in the first place. Yet, you give islam a free pass. There is a reason I must be skeptical - why does the Middle East seem to loathe democracy? What is in the Koran that suggests that it's evil? I want to know, and all I hear is the sensativity police instead of an honest answer for asking.

You're seriously going off the deep end here. Not one sentence had anything to do with my post. You attack me and label me "as someone who loathes the very existence of Christian influence", which couldn't be further from the truth. You go on about hating democracy and giving islam a free pass none of which had anything to do with my post. You haven't once approached the biblical concept seriously so I'm going to leave this thread until you do.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

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You're seriously going off the deep end here...

You don't have to appease your enemy to love them. You don't have to give them a better life in prison than they had before. If you want to love your enemies, so pray for them. The detainees that so many want to sympathize with don't want our forgiveness. They want our heads. They committed their crimes for a reason, and our government has the duty to punish those who intend to bring us harm.

Romans 13:1-7

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, for those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 

[BVS]

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You don't have to appease your enemy to love them.

Once again no one said appease.

You don't have to give them a better life in prison than they had before.

Who said give them a better life than they had?

If you want to love your enemies, so pray for them. The detainees that so many want to sympathize with don't want our forgiveness. They want our heads. They committed their crimes for a reason, and our government has the duty to punish those who intend to bring us harm.

Praying's a great start. But the rest of your post this is where your hate starts to rule your thinking. Have you met all the detainees, have you met any? Yes we've seen some horrible acts done by some of these men.

But some of these detainees we don't even know why they are there. I bet if you talk to them, there are some that want forgiveness, I bet there are some that fell into crime purely based on having no other alternative. But no you've written each and everyone of these men sub-human and the truth is we don't even know if some have committed crimes. I find that sub-human and no where near what Christ would endorse.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

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Praying's a great start. But the rest of your post this is where your hate starts to rule your thinking. Have you met all the detainees, have you met any? Yes we've seen some horrible acts done by some of these men.

It seems you wouldn't know the difference between being hateful and being cautious. Logic 101: If I was a bubble boy, I wouldn't pass gas. Your question about "meeting" detainees is irrelevant beyond my point. My point is that they are there for a reason. They are accused war criminals.

But some of these detainees we don't even know why they are there. I bet if you talk to them, there are some that want forgiveness, I bet there are some that fell into crime purely based on having no other alternative. But no you've written each and everyone of these men sub-human and the truth is we don't even know if some have committed crimes. I find that sub-human and no where near what Christ would endorse.

So in your view, we just saw these people, decided we didn't like them, and threw them in the pen, or they had no other choice but to become terrorists. I would support putting them on trial, but a fast and speedy trial.