in case you thought Patraeus was apolitical ...

[A_Wanderer]

Originally posted by Irvine511




um, hello? the Soviets were godless communists, not patrotic can-do Americans.

haven't you been paying attention? Petraeus just told us that the heterosexual "Surge" has reduced the potency of the "InSurgency" to what it was 18 months ago! that's incredible! it doesn't matter that it's way, way, way stronger than it was in 2003, 2004, 2005 and early 2006. it's better than it was when we started! see! Iraq hasn't totally slid into a deep black hellhole of bonecrunching sectarian violence where Sunnis put Shiites in ovens, and vice versa. see! when you set the bar really, really, really low, things can start to look really up!

For all the hyperbole do you make the distinction between sectarian violence and that directed at US forces? Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia for instance has lost it's safe havens due to the pressures on the Sunni tribes because of the sectarianism - as that war goes to the fore the insurgency fades and pales.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by A_Wanderer
For all the hyperbole do you make the distinction between sectarian violence and that directed at US forces? Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia for instance has lost it's safe havens due to the pressures on the Sunni tribes because of the sectarianism - as that war goes to the fore the insurgency fades and pales.

when it comes to the Surge's stated goal -- military stability to facilitate political reconciliation -- it doesn't matter much if the violence is from Al-Qaeda or Sunni-on-Shiitte-or-vice-versa. instability is instability. it continues to be so, and "the Surge" is not just politically useless, but militarily as well because it's not addressing the real causes of the unrest in Baghdad.

i've also said in here that the moderate successes battling AQM in Al-Anbar posit a way out of Iraq -- sure, you're a Sunni and you hate the Shiites, but if you see the increasingly desperate AQM tactics, you're going to hate them more. the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend. and this has little to do with "the Surge" which is mostly in Baghdad.

[A_Wanderer]

it doesn't matter much if the violence is from Al-Qaeda or Sunni-on-Shiitte-or-vice-versa

I would think that it matters a great deal, especially if you support a timetable for a phased withdrawl over the next year, if there are safe havens for international terrorist organisations the blowback is much greater than that of tribal war and ethnic cleansing - the marginalisation of AQ in Iraq is a boon for getting foreign forces out of the country, much more than finding that an acceptable price to pay.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I would think that it matters a great deal, especially if you support a timetable for a phased withdrawl over the next year, if there are safe havens for international terrorist organisations the blowback is much greater than that of tribal war and ethnic cleansing - the marginalisation of AQ in Iraq is a boon for getting foreign forces out of the country, much more than finding that an acceptable price to pay.

insofar as an exit strategy, i agree; insofar as creating enough stability for the government to function, i do not agree.

there are two different goals here.

and we could knock out AQM for all intents and purposes, leave, and the lack of a government could provide another Afghanistan for AQI.

so, ultimately, we're kind of fucked no matter what.

[kellyahern]

Originally posted by Irvine511


so, ultimately, we're kind of fucked no matter what.

I think that sums up the whole war in one sentence.

[Infinity]

Originally posted by Irvine511



so, ultimately, we're kind of fucked no matter what.

AMEN!

[deep]

To be fair,
these guys, Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker

have a better plan and execution than the meandering mess that has has happened from 2003 on

but, even doing things right now will not put it all back together again

I heard Crocker say
"Am I positive this will work? No.
But I am optimistic."

I can't tell you how many times I have heard a Doctor say almost the same thing
when I have gone to visit a terminally ill person.

[AEON]

Originally posted by deep
To be fair,
these guys, Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker

have a better plan and execution than the meandering mess that has has happened from 2003 on

Amen. If only Petraeus was in charge then...

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by AEON


Amen. If only Petraeus was in charge then...

i can agree with this.

but with the caveat that we'd have needed a different president and SecDef.

[Varitek]

Originally posted by 2861U2


This again?




You don't follow the news much, do you?

Violence in Baghdad most certainly is down since the surge- BY 75%!!. Both combat deaths and sectarian violence in Iraq (and ESPECIALLY in Baghdad) are down from last spring.

They are not counting car bombs as violence, for reasons beyond comprehension (oh wait...I understand...they are cooking the books to make it look better!). Nor are they counting violence between people within the same sect, just violence that is sect-against-sect. However, violence within sects has gone up.

[AEON]

Originally posted by Irvine511




i can agree with this.

but with the caveat that we'd have needed a different president and SecDef.

And I can agree on the SecDef....

[Irvine511]

and if we had a different president, we'd have a different SecDef, and if we had a different president, he'd have accepted Rumsfeld's resignation after Abu Ghraib.

it all comes back to Bush.

[MrsSpringsteen]

The Nation

During the Q&A round at the armed services committee, Senator John Warner, the Virginia Republican who used to chair the committee and who has called for beginning a disengagement in Iraq, took a few sharp (albeit respectful) jabs at Petraeus, noting that one intelligence report after another has said that political reconciliation in Iraq could be a bridge too far. He then asked Petraeus a pointed question: "Do you feel that [Iraq war] is making America safer"?

Petraeus paused before responding. He then said: "I believe this is indeed the best course of action to achieve our objectives in Iraq."

That was, of course, a non-answer. And Warner wasn't going to let the general dodge the bullet. He repeated the question: "Does the [Iraq war] make America safer?"

Petraeus replied, "I don't know, actually. I have not sat down and sorted in my own mind."

Don't know? Is it possible that the war is not making the United States safer? Petraeus went on to note that he has "taken into account" the war's impact on the U.S. military and that it's his job to recommend to the president the best course for reaching "the objectives of the policy" in Iraq. Yet he did not say that the Iraq war is essential to the national security of the United States. Warner did not press the general any further on this point. The senator's time was up.

[kellyahern]

^ The most important moment of the hearing. "Is this making America safer?" "I don't know". From the general in charge. Wow.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by kellyahern
^ The most important moment of the hearing. "Is this making America safer?" "I don't know". From the general in charge. Wow.

so, not only has the Surge failed on the basis of the goals set by the Bush administration, but so has the entire war.

so let's watch them, again, try to shift the goalposts.

[yolland]

Originally posted by kellyahern
^ The most important moment of the hearing. "Is this making America safer?" "I don't know". From the general in charge. Wow.

[AEON]

Originally posted by kellyahern
^ The most important moment of the hearing. "Is this making America safer?" "I don't know". From the general in charge. Wow.

It is not his job to assess the entire global climate. His mission is Iraq.

[diamond]

Why do ppl keep picking on a guy named "Surge" here?

[anitram]

Originally posted by AEON


It is not his job to assess the entire global climate. His mission is Iraq.

Um, he was asked whether the Iraq mission is making America safer. Not whether it was making the world safer.

Surely if you believed Iraq was a threat to the US and/or harboured terrorists then you should believe that controlling the situation would at least partially increase security in the US.

[AEON]

Next time - please give the FULL answer:

Petraeus: "Sir, I don't know, actually. I have not sat down and sorted out in my own mind. What I have focused on and been riveted on is how to accomplish the mission of the Multi-National Force in Iraq."