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Old 10-18-2007, 07:10 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
If someone handed me a condom right now, I wouldn't think oh wow, now let me find someone to have sex with...

In fact when someone handed me a condom when I was 15, I thought the same thing, I had that condom till it expired.

So I just don't get the mindset.

We are failing in sexual education!!! You can't just preach abstinence, and you can't just preach wear a condom. We have to find a way to teach kids how emotional, intimate, and consequential that sex is even when safe.

But that's just me.

I could not agree more completely.
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Old 10-18-2007, 07:48 AM   #22
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy

mind you, i don't have an 11 yr old daughter wanting to have sex
Exactly-I don't either and if I did there'd be lots of going on about them wanting to have sex. But seriously, I would hope that since I would talk to them at an early age (daughter or son-boys need the same sort of talk and also need to learn respect for females, and themselves) about what sex really is all about and why it is best for their physical and mental and emotional well being to wait. I would want complete open communication, in my opinion that's the best and I think talking at an early age in the right way fosters that and the comfort level that's necessary for that. But all the best intentions don't always work perfectly, so if they don't kids need to be protected from at least the physical consequences and certainly pregnancy and disease. Now more than ever parents cannot hide their heads in the sand-not that they ever could. Personally I know how disappointed I was in my mother for her inability/refusal to deal with the whole issue, and I would never want that for any kids. Luckily I had the skills somehow to cope with those issues on my own, not every kid has that. I grew up in a different time and all that, but the fundamental issues were the same.

The school committee approved it

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/st...41436&ac=PHnws
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:38 AM   #23
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http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/17/susan-orr/

On Monday, President Bush appointed Susan Orr to oversee federal family planning programs at the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Orr, who is currently directing HHS child welfare programs, was touted by the administration as “highly qualified.”

But a look at Orr’s record shows that her strongest qualifications appear to be her right-wing credentials and endorsement of the Bush administration’s failed abstinence-only policies. Before joining HHS, Orr served as senior director for marriage and family care at the conservative Family Research Council and was an adjunct professor at Pat Robertson’s Regent University. Some highlights:

– In a 2001, Orr embraced a Bush administration proposal to “stop requiring all health insurance plans for federal employees” to cover a broad range of birth control. “We’re quite pleased, because fertility is not a disease,” said Orr.

– At the 2001 Conservative Political Action Conference, Orr cheered Bush’s endorsement of Reagan’s “Mexico City Policy,” which required NGOs receiving federal funds to “neither perform nor actively promote abortion as a method of family planning in other nations.” Orr said that it was proof Bush was pro-life “in his heart.”

– In a 2000 Weekly Standard article, Orr railed against requiring health insurance plans to cover contraceptives. “It’s not about choice,” said Orr. “It’s not about health care. It’s about making everyone collaborators with the culture of death.”

– Orr authored a paper in 2000 titled, “Real Women Stay Married.” In it she wrote that women should “think about focusing our eyes, not upon ourselves, but upon the families we form through marriage.”
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:51 AM   #24
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So, Orr obviously is and Err(or).
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Old 10-18-2007, 09:12 AM   #25
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
nothing is going to stop the freight train of sex slamming
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Old 10-20-2007, 11:30 AM   #26
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Jeez - I remember my mother making info about sex available to us all the time. We didn't necessarily have a sit-down about it, but she had these two books that were about sex that we were encouraged to read whenever we wanted. Somehow I managed to keep my virginity until I was 23. I knew certain things could lead to a baby - and since I always found babies rather annoying little creatures, I wanted to stay as far away from that as I could. Not to mention it sounded painful to push an 8 pound anything out of any portion of my body, there was no way you could convince me that it would be a good idea to risk intercourse before I graduated high school (which was also important to me). Oh, and let's not forget all the pregnant girls I /did/ see, who looked so freakin' miserable..

Kids are generally smarter than parents would like to believe. Giving a girl birth control isn't actually going to make her go have sex. It's merely going to sit in a drawer, somewhere, most likely. I think few girls are even going to want to consider it at 13, anyway. Fooling around? Almost certainly. Actual sex? That's rare at that age. Not impossible, but rare. We have to start admitting to ourselves that once puberty hits, childhood ends and adulthood begins. We have to start treating teenagers as very young, inexperienced adults, not small children who should be playing with dolls.
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Old 10-20-2007, 12:16 PM   #27
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Maybe I'm way off on this, but I really think it's the parent's responsibility to handle this, and all the ramifications from a situation where an 11-13 year-old's sexual activity.

As a society, we hold the parents responsible for children's behavior during this time. If a child demonstrates various behavior at school, we call the parents, etc...

With that logic, if a parent feels compelled to dispense birth control to their children, go for it. If they have other methods, go right ahead. If an 11 year-old becomes pregnant, it should be the parents responsibility to handle the situation, in the manner they see fit.

Ok, I'm sure there are many children without parents to consent, and in those cases, we have to rely on whatever state sponsored social work system is in place. School? I guess. But this kind of subject (should I have sex or not, should I begin birth control or not, NOT sex education) should be handled in a parent-child type of setting.

There are 11 year olds that still go to after school day-care etc... Should they be dispensing birth control at a day-care?
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Old 10-20-2007, 12:30 PM   #28
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MrsSpringsteen,

I don't know much about this Orr person, but I find nothing offensive to the bullets you posted.

Quote:
– In a 2001, Orr embraced a Bush administration proposal to “stop requiring all health insurance plans for federal employees” to cover a broad range of birth control. “We’re quite pleased, because fertility is not a disease,” said Orr.
Hmmm... Most plans don't cover birth control. There might be some folks on this board that are fortunate enough to have this, but I think it's rare. Federal workers (myself being one), get some good deals that we probably shouldn't when weighed against the average worker.

Quote:
– At the 2001 Conservative Political Action Conference, Orr cheered Bush’s endorsement of Reagan’s “Mexico City Policy,” which required NGOs receiving federal funds to “neither perform nor actively promote abortion as a method of family planning in other nations.” Orr said that it was proof Bush was pro-life “in his heart.”
I can't imagine anyone endorsing a program the 'actively promoted abortion as a method of family planning'. Can you?

Quote:
– In a 2000 Weekly Standard article, Orr railed against requiring health insurance plans to cover contraceptives. “It’s not about choice,” said Orr. “It’s not about health care. It’s about making everyone collaborators with the culture of death.”
Ok, I get her position. It's still up to the insurer, they are all different and if a program wants to cover b/c, good for them. I bet it has more to do with the 'day after pill' or actual abortions rather than condoms.

Quote:
– Orr authored a paper in 2000 titled, “Real Women Stay Married.” In it she wrote that women should “think about focusing our eyes, not upon ourselves, but upon the families we form through marriage.”
I would hope 'real men' stay married too, especially when their families need them. I do my best to focus on my family and not myself at this stage in my life as well. Good parents are are largely selfless while raising their children. I'm getting ready to shell out close to 100k per year while both of my children go to college, and I couldn't be more proud. I haven't read the book, but I'm assuming that this is largely a play against marriages that produce several children, followed-up by an early divorce and all of the turmoil that 'sometimes' comes. I've seen it first hand, and have been saddened by these situations. Most of the damage is not because of the divorce, but because either both, or one parent is not supportive of the family, and is not selfless in their endeavor to support their children.

So, yeah, she's conservative, no surprise. I'm sure Hillary will appoint someone more to your liking.
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Old 10-20-2007, 01:05 PM   #29
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I'm a Mainer, but not really sure where I come down on this. A difficult issue for sure, but I guess it's reality.

It's disturbing, though, that after parents sign off on the health waiver, the school cannot disclose to parents what treatments and chemicals a middle school aged child might be putting into their bodies. Probably a legal issue...but I think even parents who don't give their kids much attention at all would want to know. They should know.

I understand that confidentiality might make it more likely for a kid to take the health services, but it also continues the non-communication between parents and children. Isn't non-communication the root problem?
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Old 10-20-2007, 01:47 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White
It's disturbing, though, that after parents sign off on the health waiver, the school cannot disclose to parents what treatments and chemicals a middle school aged child might be putting into their bodies. Probably a legal issue...but I think even parents who don't give their kids much attention at all would want to know. They should know.
Then they shouldn't sign the waiver.
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Old 10-20-2007, 06:34 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
I would hope 'real men' stay married too, especially when their families need them.
My problem with this is A) Orr didn't mention anything about "real men" staying married in the title - just women. If she thought men needed to hear this message as well, why wasn't the title "Real Men and Women Stay Married"? It's almost like she's holding women soley responsible for upholding marriage. B) Sometimes "real women" (and men) seriously do need to get out of bad, unhealthy marriages where there is physical and/or emotional abuse going on. Also, although I don't believe people should get divorced at the drop of a hat, sometimes people just can't make it work for whatever reason and are making each other miserable. I know divorce can be hard on kids, but so can having parents who fight constantly.
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Old 10-20-2007, 07:02 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
M
Hmmm... Most plans don't cover birth control. There might be some folks on this board that are fortunate enough to have this, but I think it's rare. Federal workers (myself being one), get some good deals that we probably shouldn't when weighed against the average worker.
What kind of country are you people living in? Honestly, I have to wonder sometimes. I don't know anyone with any private insurance plan in Canada (through their employer) who doesn't have birth control pills covered. That's absurd, given the high percentage of women who need them for "legitimate" medical reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with this blessed fertility Orr speaks of.
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Old 10-20-2007, 07:33 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


What kind of country are you people living in? Honestly, I have to wonder sometimes. I don't know anyone with any private insurance plan in Canada (through their employer) who doesn't have birth control pills covered. That's absurd, given the high percentage of women who need them for "legitimate" medical reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with this blessed fertility Orr speaks of.
Given enough time and a majority government, I'm sure our dick of a PM will find a way to take that away from women. He is already looking to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16 by using the U.S style of slipping multiple laws into a one giant piece of legislation. Right wing agenda, you betcha!!
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Old 10-20-2007, 08:27 PM   #34
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The problem with Harper's tough crime stance is that the conservatives keep drafting bills that are hopeless. Take Bill C-32, which they lobbied hard for, but essentially fell through the cracks, because they insist on introducing amendments to the CC which will just either not fly, or will be tossed out by the SCC for being unconstitutional.

Still baffles me why a drug plan would exclude birth control, anywhere, though. Weirdos.
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Old 10-20-2007, 09:27 PM   #35
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I now get 3 months of birth control at a time (generics only, though) for $10 through my insurance plan. I'm not sure if the reason for getting has any bearing. My prescription is for reasons other than birth control so I don't know. They won't cover my epileptic husband's EEG test though, figure that one out....
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Old 10-21-2007, 01:50 AM   #36
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I think everyone can agree that ideally, all parents would communicate openly with their children about sex, birth control, and STDs well before they become capable of getting pregnant or getting someone else pregnant. But the reality is A) not all parents do that, and B) even where they do, that's no guarantee that their children will always make good decisions about sex, much less that they'll feel comfortable openly discussing their sex lives with their parents if and when they begin to have one. Parents can't keep children under lock and key to prevent all possibility of sexual activity, nor can children force their parents to provide contraceptives for them if the parents are opposed to it. While I think sexual activity at junior high age is a bad idea, I would rather that children who are going to do it anyway have access to protection from pregnancy and STDs. I read in USA Today that Baltimore's public school system has seen a 73% drop in their teen pregnancy rate since making birth control available through school clinics (which are generally only found in schools serving primarily socioeconomically disadvantaged kids to begin with, and offer a full range of medical care including dentistry, etc.) back in the 1990s. That's definitely a better result than not offering birth control at all and seeing a much smaller teen pregnancy decrease (the teen pregnancy rate has decreased nationwide since that time, but only by 28%).

I do agree with Irvine though that the focus should be on encouraging the use of condoms, not the Pill, which does nothing to protect from STDs.
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Old 10-21-2007, 08:37 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

So, yeah, she's conservative, no surprise. I'm sure Hillary will appoint someone more to your liking.
Nope -if someone she appointed was carrying out a political/religious agenda I wouldn't like that either. You honestly think that someone in that position should be there to carry out a political and/or religious agenda? It's on a similar spectrum to pharmacists who refuse to prescribe the morning after pill because it's against their religious beliefs-it has no place in that job. When the person you are appointing to such a job starts referring to preventing pregnancy as being about a "culture of death" that's inappropriate. Because guess what-many of the people she is serving, the citizens, don't believe that.

And people Bush appoints always seem to be somehow blaming the woman for sexual issues, marriage, etc. That real woman quote sounds like it's straight out of Dr. Laura's handbook Maybe Bush should appoint Dr. Laura for that job.
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Old 10-21-2007, 08:45 AM   #38
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Don't give him ideas. It's best when he doesn't have ideas.
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Old 10-21-2007, 09:05 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

Hmmm... Most plans don't cover birth control. There might be some folks on this board that are fortunate enough to have this, but I think it's rare. Federal workers (myself being one), get some good deals that we probably shouldn't when weighed against the average worker.
I would say there are two problems with this:
1. Because not every plan includes birth control, those which have it should drop it?
2. "Fertility is not a disease", hence no birth control in health insurance is a crappy comparison (or whatever that is meant to be). Birth control, as well as fertility, is part of health, and face it: Not everyone wants five+ children or stop having sex after the second child.

Quote:
I can't imagine anyone endorsing a program the 'actively promoted abortion as a method of family planning'. Can you?
I would say it's just a oversimplification accusing any organisation to go and say, "Well, all you have to do if it went wrong is to abort". This issue is far too complex, but you shouldn't exclude abortion entirely. I'm sure those organisations make sure to teach the people every means of birth control before abortion, but also don't keep secret that abortion exists.
If there really was an organisation who goes and teaches abortion as the way to successful "family planning", I agree, don't support it.
But I doubt those organisations are solely meant as there are far too few.

Quote:
Ok, I get her position. It's still up to the insurer, they are all different and if a program wants to cover b/c, good for them. I bet it has more to do with the 'day after pill' or actual abortions rather than condoms.
Again, her assumptions are highly questionable, and ridiculous. This "collaborators with the culture of death" statement is so silly, or more bluntly, stupid, it is very telling of the kind of organisation that is paying her to work in this field.
She is speaking of contraceptives in general, so if there wasn't anything left out she said before indicating she was speaking about the day after pill explicitely, which has been pointed out isn't like you have sex and then easily go to the doctor the next day and he just gives you the pill, I would assume she also includes the pill, condoms and everything else here.
That's ludicrous. Should we save any sperm the male body produces to save a life?
Birth control and family planning, and god forbid, having sex before marriage or in marriage just for pleasure, is a reality in our society, something modern societies usually don't debate about anymore, and contraceptive is an ordinary part of modern health policy.
Culture of death is crap, really.

Quote:
I would hope 'real men' stay married too, especially when their families need them. I do my best to focus on my family and not myself at this stage in my life as well. Good parents are are largely selfless while raising their children. I'm getting ready to shell out close to 100k per year while both of my children go to college, and I couldn't be more proud. I haven't read the book, but I'm assuming that this is largely a play against marriages that produce several children, followed-up by an early divorce and all of the turmoil that 'sometimes' comes. I've seen it first hand, and have been saddened by these situations. Most of the damage is not because of the divorce, but because either both, or one parent is not supportive of the family, and is not selfless in their endeavor to support their children.
As pointed out before, sometimes marriages just don't work, and then "better an end with terror than terror without an end"

And yes, men have to be included as well.

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So, yeah, she's conservative, no surprise. I'm sure Hillary will appoint someone more to your liking.
American conservative I would like to add.
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Old 10-21-2007, 09:29 AM   #40
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Kids are having sex at such a young age. If you're having sex and don't want babies, use birth control.
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