How much jail time for women who have abortions?

[BVS]

doesn't that make the person 'anti choice'?

Why not take this ridiculous analogy a step further... Give someone the choice to own a rocket launcher, give them the choice to carry swords on their belts in public, give them the choice to make homemade anthrax in their backyard... Come on!

 

[martha]

I'm gonna ask anyway. No one ever seems to able to answer, but what the hell.

How are you going to run the system so women who've been raped can opt to abort?

Still waiting.

 

[deep]

Why not take this ridiculous analogy a step further... Give someone the choice to own a rocket launcher, give them the choice to carry swords on their belts in public, give them the choice to make homemade anthrax in their backyard... Come on!

I think a more reasonable question might be what would the "founding fathers" have outlawed?

Would they have prohibited John Handcock from having cannons and other munitions on his trading ships?

Would they have allowed citizens to carry weapons on passenger ships?


If 2nd amendment supporters want to argue "original intend" then private citizens should be able to have mounted weapons on their vehicles and even on their private property.
Such as cannons, and the like.

I can not extend this argument to anthrax or nukes.

 

[deep]

Still waiting.

I am pro-right to have abortions

pro-choice is for whimps
and actually aids the abortion prohibitionists


I think a rape victim should be able to have an abortion, if she wants one

of course, some women would want to carry that same fetus full term to birth

 

[martha]

I'm still waiting for anyone who is on the "only in rape etc" side to explain the exact plan for this.

I don't expect an answer; they never have a plan.

 

[deep]

many politicians and other people say

no abortions
expect for rape and incest


it does make them sound a little more reasonable

because if they or their wife / daughter / sister was hit over the head and raped by a hardened, disease infected, criminal they want the option

and if their 13 year old daughter got impregnated by a 35 year-old creepy family member, again they want the option


ok, I get your point

unless we live in a country where a rape only legally occurs when there are
three males that will testify
is it even possible to define rape?
what would be the standard?
proof? let's hope the rapist tapes it and puts it on you-tube

incest? sure, women are eager to go public with this and prove it.

 

[martha]

unless we live in a country where a rape only legally occurs when there are
three males that will testify
is it even possible to define rape?
what would be the standard?
proof?

That's what I'm saying.

 

[Angela Harlem]

many politicians and other people say

no abortions
expect for rape and incest


it does make them sound a little more reasonable

because if they or their wife / daughter / sister was hit over the head and raped by a hardened, disease infected, criminal they want the option

and if their 13 year old daughter got impregnated by a 35 year-old creepy family member, again they want the option


ok, I get your point

unless we live in a country where a rape only legally occurs when there are
three males that will testify
is it even possible to define rape?
what would be the standard?
proof? let's hope the rapist tapes it and puts it on you-tube

incest? sure, women are eager to go public with this and prove it.

perhaps those in this camp are so callous as to even want women to prove legally that they were raped. after all, this will have to happen for such a legal exemption, right? there'll need to be documented proof from an attending doctor to attest evidence of rape. there will need to be a dna sample taken, charges laid, etc. because it's not bad enough that a woman be raped, but she gets pregnant from the rape! and then she needs to abort the pregnancy! and then go through the legal rigmarole to permit her to rid herself of the offending remnants.

why not elect a fucking jury of strangers to witness the whole fucking mess, too, just in case the woman still has a small shred of dignity left after all this. what dumbarse fuckwit suggested this originally in this thread? i can't be bothered reading back. of all the dumbarse fucking ideas...

 

[Angela Harlem]

^that wasn't directed at you, deep, by the way. and apologies for the language... actually, no, screw that. there's plenty more if someone wants to be shortsighted enough to actually push the point martha is arguing against. but like she's stated, how the hell can you? and yet, here fym and the world once again sits - arguing over abortion.

 

[martha]

what dumbarse fuckwit suggested this originally

It's a popular policy with conservative politicians in my beloved country. It makes them appear less controlling if they can say that they support the gals in this situation.

And I'll be waiting for a plan forever. I've never gotten anyone here to actually answer the question.

 

[deep]

^that wasn't directed at you, deep,

no problem

I never take anything personal


and Martha

did a good service by repeatedly asking the question

If any one actually gives it a bit of thought they will come to the conclusion that it is really not workable

it is just something they say because they would not want their wives or daughters to have to carry a baby to term if they were raped by someone like this

 

[Butterscotch]

Is that...the return of WILLIE HORTON??!

 

[martha]

You're back! Now you can answer my question:

I'm gonna ask anyway. No one ever seems to able to answer, but what the hell.

How are you going to run the system so women who've been raped can opt to abort?

 

[Butterscotch]

IMO all rapes should be reported to the cops as proof, not only for this reason but because the creep needs to get caught. Look, I'm not going to fight with you. I disagree with you on this issue, so respect my 'choice' not to talk to you about it

 

[martha]

IMO all rapes should be reported to the cops as proof, not only for this reason but because the creep needs to get caught.

So all a woman would need to do is report the rape and all is fine! It'll work!

Look, I'm not going to fight with you. I disagree with you on this issue, so respect my 'choice' not to talk to you about it

Nope. You think you have the right to tell me what happens to my body; you have no respect for choice, so I'm going to ask you how this plan works until you come up with more than cop-out. I'm not "fighting" with you, I'm asking you how it'll work. You think abortions should be allowed in cases of rape. Tell us how that'll work. Otherwise, stop making reproductive decisions for strangers, and make them only for yourself.

 

[Butterscotch]

I have my own feelings about this, and I cannot condone someone else killing their baby, sorry. I'm alive today because my Dad pulled my mom out of an abortion clinic when I was minutes away from becoming a 'choice.' He told her he loved her and wanted to take care of her and the baby. This means a lot to me, so don't push it. You are anti-choice because you refuse to accept my right to choose not to discuss this any further

 

[A_Wanderer]

Nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to talk, likewise nobody is forcing women to have abortions.

It's as if freedom stops when it offends you.

 

[martha]

I have my own feelings about this, and I cannot condone someone else killing their baby, sorry. I'm alive today because my Dad pulled my mom out of an abortion clinic when I was minutes away from becoming a 'choice.' He told her he loved her and wanted to take care of her and the baby. This means a lot to me, so don't push it. You are anti-choice because you refuse to accept my right to choose not to discuss this any further

Personal stories are the key to this whole issue. Thier are other personal stories out there. They may not make you happy.

Your refusal to justify imposing your beliefs on other women, and then hiding behind a word, doesn't make you credible. You do have a "right" not to discuss it, but I also have an actual right make reproductive decisions without your interference.

I'll drop it, but understand that your simplistic beliefs about this may end up getting an adult woman you love killed. Your willingness to impose your beliefs on someone else's body may result in someone bleeding to death.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Basically, there is no reason to ban abortion, other then a religious reason or a 'i don't like it'. So therefore, there is no reason to ban it. There are lots of things we don't like but have to put up with. And as ive said before, we live in a society where sex is for pleasure, not just for procreation and therefore, we HAVE to have actions in place for things that happen. Abortion is one of them.

 

[martha]

we live in a society where sex is for pleasure, not just for procreation

Thank God.

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

yeah sex is for pleasure but don't forget there are condoms, sponges, pills, spermicides, etc. need to be used a lot more failure rate is less than 1% what accounts for other abortions but irresponsibililty on part of one or both partners

 

[martha]

yeah sex is for pleasure but don't forget there are condoms, sponges, pills, spermicides, etc. need to be used a lot more failure rate is less than 1% what accounts for other abortions but irresponsibililty on part of one or both partners

And your point?


This is why Planned Parenthood exists--to make sure the demand for abortions is low. Prevention is the key, yet where in all the anti-choice shouting and placard-carrying do we see support for contraception?

 

[anitram]

yeah sex is for pleasure but don't forget there are condoms, sponges, pills, spermicides, etc. need to be used a lot more failure rate is less than 1% what accounts for other abortions but irresponsibililty on part of one or both partners

Except we don't want to teach kids about that in schools because that'll turn them into promiscuous little sluts. And we don't want to provide free condoms because that promotes sex. And we don't want to fund third world sexual education programs where people have NO chance of affording contraception, because that offends the religious right and their perceived morality.

 

[dazzlingamy]

^ exactly!

We can't talk about sex because heaven forbid, everyone will go sexing around everywhere, because you know, right now we live in such a clean non sexless before we're married already.

The reason so many people are having sex, is because it is treated as taboo. 'Oooooooh you're being naughty having sex' so lets do it and rock the system type thinking.
Its like alcohol, we place such high value on it (not a drop till your 21!!) and then shrug our shoulders when you pass by 15,16,17 year olds plastered every weekend. If we stopped placing such high taboos and scaredy tactics on everything perhaps they wouldn't be seen as something to rebel against during teenage years so much.

 

[Butterscotch]

Do you mean to say nobody old enough for sex knows where babies come from?

 

[CTU2fan]

Except we don't want to teach kids about that in schools because that'll turn them into promiscuous little sluts. And we don't want to provide free condoms because that promotes sex. And we don't want to fund third world sexual education programs where people have NO chance of affording contraception, because that offends the religious right and their perceived morality.

Well that's the thing. The folks who are most "up-in-arms" about abortion are incredibly hypocritical in that they're so focused on banning it legally that they can't see how improved sex education and an emphasis on promoting safe sex would decrease the amount of abortions. Sometimes I honestly think the fundie types who are most outspoken against abortion don't so much care about saving the lives of unborn children as they do about excercising control over others' bodies/lifestyles. It's a shame really. My thought on it is, if you want to decrease the number of abortions you're better off doing your best to prevent unwanted pregnancies rather than forcing women underground; if they're desperate, they'll find a way to abort, and that way is likely to be very dangerous.

I'm curious what people think should be done to "encourage" fathers to take responsibility for their children?

 

[joyfulgirl]

Do you mean to say nobody old enough for sex knows where babies come from?

 

[martha]

Sometimes I honestly think the fundie types who are most outspoken against abortion don't so much care about saving the lives of unborn children as they do about excercising control over others' bodies/lifestyles.

Welcome.

 

[diamond]

I have my own feelings about this, and I cannot condone someone else killing their baby, sorry. I'm alive today because my Dad pulled my mom out of an abortion clinic when I was minutes away from becoming a 'choice.' He told her he loved her and wanted to take care of her and the baby. This means a lot to me, so don't push it. You are anti-choice because you refuse to accept my right to choose not to discuss this any further

Thank you for sharing that bscotch.
Your dad did the right thing.

I, as I'm sure others understand your perspective better, regardless of the post counts in support of your views.

dbs

 

[martha]

Do you mean to say nobody old enough for sex knows where babies come from?

We try to teach it, but your pals in the anti-choice movement are scared shitless of proper sex ed. They don't adequately teach their own kids, and they don't want anyone else's kids taught the proper things either. You and the rest of you can't have it both ways; you either need to support full access to contraception or you need to shut up about making abortion illegal.

But that's not something you want to discuss is it? Are you going to invoke your "choice" to not talk about it, yet still post in this thread?