Chastity or lack thereof

pax · 10-17-2002, 05:15 PM

So I went on this service trip last week, and as you can imagine, a college service trip is going to attract a lot of Campus Ministry-type persons who are pretty religious. I have, in theory, no problem with that. I have some strongly held beliefs myself, though perhaps not many; I still consider myself to be flexible on a lot of issues.

Anyway, a bunch of the girls and I were up late talking one night, and somehow the discussion got around to chastity/abstinence. Now, I'm all for abstinence; don't get me wrong. It's the only 100% foolproof way to prevent pregnancy and STDs, and for many people it's a religious tenet. I've even been abstaining myself lately because I haven't been able to nail down a steady relationship and I was sick of sex without real intimacy.

The problem I had was this: the idea that virginity is somehow "preferable" to the lack of it. I mean, I guess it is, in some ways. But I couldn't contribute to this conversation at all, and I felt rather, well...cheap, despite the fact that my days of one-night stands were pretty limited and that they're long over. I think I don't like, as someone whose virginity is very much a thing of the past, being made to feel "dirty" or "impure" or "not-special" (if that makes any sense). It's wonderful that these women have made promises to themselves, and that they're proud to have upheld them. But should that pride come at the expense of women who haven't made the same decision?

I don't know about any of this. What do you all think about the state of being a never-married non-virgin in these virgin-obsessed times?

deep · 10-17-2002, 07:15 PM

Quote:

I think I don't like, as someone whose virginity is very much a thing of the past, being made to feel "dirty" or "impure" or "not-special" (if that makes any sense).

No one can make you feel this way, but yourself.

Guilt, shame, embarrassment all require your cooperation.
It is what�s in your heart that matters.

Sparkysgrrrl · 10-17-2002, 07:46 PM

Well that goes for anytime anyone has a belief different than your own. You can be made to feel "dirty" on any topic. If there's something being discussed like it is the "right" way to do things, it leaves little room for acceptance or disscusion which can make ppl feel very left out.

Just ignore them, they can be high and mighty as they want but it does not make them a better person, and it doesn't make you a lesser person.

They're just mean

RavenStar · 10-17-2002, 08:12 PM

abstinence is not just abstaining from sex.

MSU2mike · 10-17-2002, 08:50 PM

It doesn't exactly sound like anyone was attacking you or anything you have or haven't done with regard to sex. The conversation came up, you were there, and due to hearing their views you felt a bit cheap or dirty. Perhaps they were catty in how they presented their opinions and that's what made you feel bad?

deep is right in saying that the only person that can make you feel dirty is you.

It should also be noted that even if you aren't particularly proud of some decisions you made in the past, that doesn't make you a bad person today (or then, for that matter). We've all done things we later wish we hadn't.

As for being a never-married non-virgin, that describes a pretty large percentage of 20-somethings.

Indeed it is what's in your heart that matters.

daisybean · 10-17-2002, 08:55 PM

Personally, I think it's great that a lot of young people are opting to wait until marriage. When I was in school, it was just the opposite, there was something wrong, or uncool if you wanted to wait.

However, you shouldn't feel "dirty" because of a choice you made. It's just that the pendulum of peer press is swinging the opposite way. I'm sure you would have felt the same way ten years ago if you were in the only virign in the room.

I understand how you feel, in the past I made some unwise choices some of which I regret...however, there is nothing I can do about it now....I can only just live my life the best I can for today. Which is what you seem to be doing now, if anything, you can help support these girls, and be open about you're past. You can in a sense say "been there, done that," hopefully they will learn from it.

**Bonochick** · 10-17-2002, 08:56 PM

I always used to be such a big believer in waiting until marriage...I thought that so many people did. I'm seeing how naive and unrealistic I've been though, and I really don't see the point in waiting. Hell, I'm engaged...that's pretty damn close.

Klaus · 10-19-2002, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by paxetaurora
some ways. But I couldn't contribute to this conversation at all, and I felt rather, well...cheap, despite the fact that my days

Sad but true.. if there is a minority (no matter if it's like in your case a non virgin, in other situations maybe the virgin, the (non) alcohol drinker...) some people love to discriminate them and show that the way they do it is superiour..

Klaus

martha · 10-19-2002, 11:23 PM

The high and mighty also fall, and when they do, it's a long way down. My wonderful mother had a saying when I was a girl: "Virtue is 99% lack of opportunity." In other words, put some serious temptation in front of those girls and see what happens. It's easy to be pure when you're not in love, when you're not in the throes of young passion. It's also easier to get pregnant if you deny that you'll ever have sex until marriage. I know many girls who swore they'd never do it before they were married. Many of them have children your age because they weren't prepared. I don't regret any of my sexual past; it's made me who I am today, and I like who I am. Be happy with who you are. Who gives a damn about self-righteous, uptight people anyway?

oliveu2cm · 10-19-2002, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by deep

No one can make you feel this way, but yourself.

Guilt, shame, embarrassment all require your cooperation.
It is what�s in your heart that matters.

let's not stereotype. i know people who have had sex talk about those who haven't as being unattractive, 'goody-two-shoes', etc. i know people who haven't had sex make those who have seem dirty, used, etc.

it's obviously the specific people's issues, not a specific group's issue. are all virgin's self-righteous snobs? are all nonvirgins loose w/ no self respect? God, no. And no one can make you feel bad without your permission. do what's right for yourself and be confident about your decision (make sure you'll be confident about it before it happens, or doesn't happen). If you are, then it won't matter what anyone else has to say.

garibaldo · 10-20-2002, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oliveu2cm

let's not stereotype. i know people who have had sex talk about those who haven't as being unattractive, 'goody-two-shoes', etc. i know people who haven't had sex make those who have seem dirty, used, etc.

it's obviously the specific people's issues, not a specific group's issue. are all virgin's self-righteous snobs? are all nonvirgins loose w/ no self respect? God, no. And no one can make you feel bad without your permission. do what's right for yourself and be confident about your decision (make sure you'll be confident about it before it happens, or doesn't happen). If you are, then it won't matter what anyone else has to say.

Why are you telling him\her not to stereotype and then repeating nearly the same thing verbatim?

"And no one can make you feel bad without your permission."

That's pretty much all he\she said anyways. Let's not accuse people of stereotyping.

garibaldo · 10-20-2002, 03:35 AM

I certainly hope that the point of this thread wasn't just to elicite sympathy from non-virgins. These girls do have something to proud of and I think it's wrong of any of you to put them down because of it

Sparkysgrrrl, it's mean of you to assume that they're "high and mighty" without knowing them.

Martha, does it make you feel better grouping virgins as uptight and self-righteous? Your reply sounds like something the immature, catty girls at my old high school might have said about another girl they didn't like. Also, your characterization of wannabe virgins as more likely to become pregnant is ridiculous. Your anecdotal evidence only serves your arguement. It seems like your whole arguement is something a person who's guilt about sex would tell themselves to justify their actions. If you're really fine about it, you don't need to make up phrases like "Virtue is 99% lack of opportunity" and generalizations about virgins to justify it.

oliveu2cm · 10-20-2002, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by garibaldo

Why are you telling him\her not to stereotype and then repeating nearly the same thing verbatim?

"And no one can make you feel bad without your permission."

That's pretty much all he\she said anyways. Let's not accuse people of stereotyping.

I'm not stereotyping. I'm saying how the stereotypes are NOT TRUE.

read my post again, b/c I did not repeat the same thing verbatim against anyone.

I'm not even accusing her of stereotyping, just saying to be careful not to apply one experience to a whole group of people. Obviously the people she spoke with have the issue, not everyone else.

Dreadsox · 10-20-2002, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by martha
The high and mighty also fall, and when they do, it's a long way down. My wonderful mother had a saying when I was a girl: "Virtue is 99% lack of opportunity."

No kidding....Once when I was at band camp......I met this girl named Martha...and..........

Quote:

Originally posted by martha

In other words, put some serious temptation in front of those girls and see what happens. It's easy to be pure when you're not in love, when you're not in the throes of young passion.

No kidding....Once when I was at band camp......I met this girl named Martha...and..........

Quote:

Originally posted by martha
It's also easier to get pregnant if you deny that you'll ever have sex until marriage. I know many girls who swore they'd never do it before they were married. Many of them have children your age because they weren't prepared. I don't regret any of my sexual past; it's made me who I am today, and I like who I am. Be happy with who you are. Who gives a damn about self-righteous, uptight people anyway?

That reminds me....Once when I was at band camp......I met this girl named Martha...and..........

martha · 10-20-2002, 11:47 AM

WOW!! Did I hit a nerve with a few people there?

I wasn't characterizing all virgins as self-righteous, just those who were giving pax some shit. Many people, both virgins and non-virgins, live non-judgemental lives. It was these particular girls who were giving her a hard time. Settle down and reread. If I've made you uncomfortable about decisions you've made, or made you think too hard, that's not my problem.

I have no qualms about my decisions, or my post, for that matter.

martha · 10-20-2002, 11:49 AM

Oh, and Dreadsox, that was cute.

Yeah, real cute.

Dreadsox · 10-20-2002, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by martha
Oh, and Dreadsox, that was cute.

Yeah, real cute.

pax · 10-20-2002, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by garibaldo
I certainly hope that the point of this thread wasn't just to elicite sympathy from non-virgins. These girls do have something to proud of and I think it's wrong of any of you to put them down because of it

So I, and millions of other women who made life-changing decisions after an awful lot of thought and support from committed partners, have something to be ashamed of?

MollyRose · 10-20-2002, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by garibaldo
I certainly hope that the point of this thread wasn't just to elicite sympathy from non-virgins. These girls do have something to proud of and I think it's wrong of any of you to put them down because of it

imho there isn't anything special about being a virgin or not being a virgin. one isn't something to be proud of more than the other. however i think individuals can be proud of themselves for making the right decision for them - ie to stay a virgin if they want to for religious reasons or to avoid pregnancy or because they haven't met the right partner, or to have lost their virginity because they met someone they loved and wanted to be with in that way.

am i making sense? there isn't anything inherently good or bad about being a virgin or not being a virgin but there's something to be proud of if you've made the best decision for yourself on the subject.

sorry if that's confusing, i hardly ever make sense

garibaldo · 10-20-2002, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by paxetaurora

So I, and millions of other women who made life-changing decisions after an awful lot of thought and support from committed partners, have something to be ashamed of?

Oh, please! Let's not glamorize what you did or what other women do on a daily\monthly (hourly?

) basis. If you think that most women had to wrestle with this decision "after an awful lot of thought and support" you're kidding yourself. Most women have sex without all the communal collaboration. If this were the case, you wouldn't be seeing the astronomical number of teenage pregnancies and STDs we're seeing today.

Martha, I don't think you can assume that they were trying to make her feel bad from what she said. I don't think they were trying to give her some "shit", though I might be wrong. I think you assume that in your mind because you stereotype virgins.

"If I've made you uncomfortable about decisions you've made, or made you think too hard, that's not my problem."

What decision could I have made that would make me feel worse than the decisions you've made? You're not a virgin. Are you claiming that keeping one's virginity is something to be ashamed of? Or were you talking about beastiality?

MollyRose, I disagree. The hardest thing in my life is to stay a virgin (esp considering the fine women walking around Cambridge

), but I choose to do so for religious reasons. I can't even form normal relationships because most women in their early 20's expect to have sex in the course of a relationship and VERY few of you are saving it until marriage. Plus, there is the temptation! Yes, unlike Martha's stereotype, I have faced temptation. OHHHH the tragedy of it all!

Still, I don't agree that one can simply just blur the lines of morality to make everyone feel good. I still think that morality isn't for everyone's subject manipulation. There is good and bad. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Just to clarify, this is ME giving YOU shit.

10-17-2002, 05:15 PM	#1
pax ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ewen's new American home Posts: 11,412 Local Time: 10:21 AM	Chastity or lack thereof So I went on this service trip last week, and as you can imagine, a college service trip is going to attract a lot of Campus Ministry-type persons who are pretty religious. I have, in theory, no problem with that. I have some strongly held beliefs myself, though perhaps not many; I still consider myself to be flexible on a lot of issues. Anyway, a bunch of the girls and I were up late talking one night, and somehow the discussion got around to chastity/abstinence. Now, I'm all for abstinence; don't get me wrong. It's the only 100% foolproof way to prevent pregnancy and STDs, and for many people it's a religious tenet. I've even been abstaining myself lately because I haven't been able to nail down a steady relationship and I was sick of sex without real intimacy. The problem I had was this: the idea that virginity is somehow "preferable" to the lack of it. I mean, I guess it is, in some ways. But I couldn't contribute to this conversation at all, and I felt rather, well...cheap, despite the fact that my days of one-night stands were pretty limited and that they're long over. I think I don't like, as someone whose virginity is very much a thing of the past, being made to feel "dirty" or "impure" or "not-special" (if that makes any sense). It's wonderful that these women have made promises to themselves, and that they're proud to have upheld them. But should that pride come at the expense of women who haven't made the same decision? I don't know about any of this. What do you all think about the state of being a never-married non-virgin in these virgin-obsessed times? __________________ __________________ and you hunger for the time time to heal, desire, time Join Amnesty.

10-17-2002, 08:55 PM	#6
daisybean Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in your eyes Posts: 8,577 Local Time: 09:21 AM	Personally, I think it's great that a lot of young people are opting to wait until marriage. When I was in school, it was just the opposite, there was something wrong, or uncool if you wanted to wait. However, you shouldn't feel "dirty" because of a choice you made. It's just that the pendulum of peer press is swinging the opposite way. I'm sure you would have felt the same way ten years ago if you were in the only virign in the room. I understand how you feel, in the past I made some unwise choices some of which I regret...however, there is nothing I can do about it now....I can only just live my life the best I can for today. Which is what you seem to be doing now, if anything, you can help support these girls, and be open about you're past. You can in a sense say "been there, done that," hopefully they will learn from it. __________________ "....But all I ever hear from you is "

10-17-2002, 08:56 PM	#7
Bonochick Halloweenhead Forum Moderator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Cherry Lane Posts: 40,819 Local Time: 10:21 AM	I always used to be such a big believer in waiting until marriage...I thought that so many people did. I'm seeing how naive and unrealistic I've been though, and I really don't see the point in waiting. Hell, I'm engaged...that's pretty damn close. __________________ "Knight in shining Zubaz." Bonochick [at] interference.com

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10-17-2002, 07:46 PM	#3
Sparkysgrrrl War Child Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: under the table and screaming Posts: 754 Local Time: 06:21 AM	Well that goes for anytime anyone has a belief different than your own. You can be made to feel "dirty" on any topic. If there's something being discussed like it is the "right" way to do things, it leaves little room for acceptance or disscusion which can make ppl feel very left out. Just ignore them, they can be high and mighty as they want but it does not make them a better person, and it doesn't make you a lesser person. They're just mean

10-17-2002, 08:12 PM	#4
RavenStar Refugee Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Purgatory Posts: 1,101 Local Time: 09:21 AM	abstinence is not just abstaining from sex.

10-17-2002, 08:50 PM	#5
MSU2mike Acrobat Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 343 Local Time: 02:21 PM	It doesn't exactly sound like anyone was attacking you or anything you have or haven't done with regard to sex. The conversation came up, you were there, and due to hearing their views you felt a bit cheap or dirty. Perhaps they were catty in how they presented their opinions and that's what made you feel bad? deep is right in saying that the only person that can make you feel dirty is you. It should also be noted that even if you aren't particularly proud of some decisions you made in the past, that doesn't make you a bad person today (or then, for that matter). We've all done things we later wish we hadn't. As for being a never-married non-virgin, that describes a pretty large percentage of 20-somethings. Indeed it is what's in your heart that matters.

10-19-2002, 11:23 PM	#9
martha Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place Posts: 42,555 Local Time: 07:21 AM	The high and mighty also fall, and when they do, it's a long way down. My wonderful mother had a saying when I was a girl: "Virtue is 99% lack of opportunity." In other words, put some serious temptation in front of those girls and see what happens. It's easy to be pure when you're not in love, when you're not in the throes of young passion. It's also easier to get pregnant if you deny that you'll ever have sex until marriage. I know many girls who swore they'd never do it before they were married. Many of them have children your age because they weren't prepared. I don't regret any of my sexual past; it's made me who I am today, and I like who I am. Be happy with who you are. Who gives a damn about self-righteous, uptight people anyway?

10-20-2002, 03:35 AM	#12
garibaldo The Fly Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: CA Posts: 100 Local Time: 02:21 PM	I certainly hope that the point of this thread wasn't just to elicite sympathy from non-virgins. These girls do have something to proud of and I think it's wrong of any of you to put them down because of it Sparkysgrrrl, it's mean of you to assume that they're "high and mighty" without knowing them. Martha, does it make you feel better grouping virgins as uptight and self-righteous? Your reply sounds like something the immature, catty girls at my old high school might have said about another girl they didn't like. Also, your characterization of wannabe virgins as more likely to become pregnant is ridiculous. Your anecdotal evidence only serves your arguement. It seems like your whole arguement is something a person who's guilt about sex would tell themselves to justify their actions. If you're really fine about it, you don't need to make up phrases like "Virtue is 99% lack of opportunity" and generalizations about virgins to justify it.

10-20-2002, 11:47 AM	#15
martha Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place Posts: 42,555 Local Time: 07:21 AM	WOW!! Did I hit a nerve with a few people there? I wasn't characterizing all virgins as self-righteous, just those who were giving pax some shit. Many people, both virgins and non-virgins, live non-judgemental lives. It was these particular girls who were giving her a hard time. Settle down and reread. If I've made you uncomfortable about decisions you've made, or made you think too hard, that's not my problem. I have no qualms about my decisions, or my post, for that matter.

10-20-2002, 11:49 AM	#16
martha Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place Posts: 42,555 Local Time: 07:21 AM	Oh, and Dreadsox, that was cute. Yeah, real cute.