nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
kobayashi said:
Careful. I am just as much a sinner as anyone else here.
Can God be "the bigger person" when it comes to non-believers?
- Thread starter Mrs. Edge
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Careful. I am just as much a sinner as anyone else here.
stammer476
Refugee
Sounds like you've got a lot on your plate, NB. I've got a few minutes, so I'll jump in.
Great question, DrTeeth. For the first part, I believe it's part of what NB said already. Before Jesus lived, obviously belief in Jesus would not have been a requirement for salvation. Thus, biblically speaking, people were judged on their faith and action in following God.
For the second part, it's a little unclear. It is likely that their state falls under the same category as those who lived before Christ, in that their are judged based on their faith and action in following God. There is a large debate on this in Christianity, with the other two options being 1.) they are condemned; 2.) there will be a special scenario that God has planned that we know nothing about.
I would guess that it depends on what you mean by "need for God." Obviously, not everyone has reached some point in their life when they say, "I really need to know Jesus." But I do think that all of us experience regular moments where we say, "I wish this world was a better place." Or, "I long for peace, joy, and satisfaction." I believe that this longing is the longing that God has placed in all of us, a desire that he has implanted so that we will search for him. He knows that we will never find these things apart from him, since he is the creator of these things and their ultimate source.
I don't know if that answered your question at all, but I hope it helped.
DrTeeth said:
Great question, DrTeeth. For the first part, I believe it's part of what NB said already. Before Jesus lived, obviously belief in Jesus would not have been a requirement for salvation. Thus, biblically speaking, people were judged on their faith and action in following God.
For the second part, it's a little unclear. It is likely that their state falls under the same category as those who lived before Christ, in that their are judged based on their faith and action in following God. There is a large debate on this in Christianity, with the other two options being 1.) they are condemned; 2.) there will be a special scenario that God has planned that we know nothing about.
kobayashi said:
I would guess that it depends on what you mean by "need for God." Obviously, not everyone has reached some point in their life when they say, "I really need to know Jesus." But I do think that all of us experience regular moments where we say, "I wish this world was a better place." Or, "I long for peace, joy, and satisfaction." I believe that this longing is the longing that God has placed in all of us, a desire that he has implanted so that we will search for him. He knows that we will never find these things apart from him, since he is the creator of these things and their ultimate source.
I don't know if that answered your question at all, but I hope it helped.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
U2democrat said:
Our answers are limited to what God revealse through Scripture.
U2democrat
Blue Crack Addict
nbcrusader said:
we are ALL sinners, but that doesn't mean we're all going to go to someplace other than the kingdom of god after we die, simply because NO ONE would get into heaven. God is loving and forgiving, which is comforting to me.
OP
OP
Mrs. Edge
Bono's Belly Dancing Friend
MaxFisher said:
First, I wouldn't say I am a non believer, I am undecided and trying to figure it all out. Like Dr. Teeth says, it's the ways people come to these decisions that is interesting.
Why it matters is that if God is supposed to be perfect and all loving, you'd think he could put asside his ego and be willing to forgive and accept ALL the people he created and not pick and choose. Because there are some NON believers who don't believe for a good reason, but that doesn't make them less deserving of entry than a "sinning" believer imo.
I also find it puzzling that someone who believes and then changes their mind has a "get out of jail free" card, but someone who has always been an unbeliever is cast out. You'd think that the former, someone who believes and then changes their mind would be just as "bad" or far worse!
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what happenes to you when you die.. I think the bible makes quite clear death is a state of non existence, you don't feel or think or know anything you return to the dust... it is likened to a sleep.. When Jesus sacrificed his life it was to rescue us from that state of death by bringing back to life, hell is the grave not some burning torment death is the ultimat punishment for sin
that is the whole reason for the resurrection and the bible states that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, so that covers those who never got a chance to learn about Jesus so Bono's father is not burning in Hell and he is not in heaven he is asleep in death waiting for Jesus to wake him up in the resurrection
Rom. 5:12, 17, 19: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned
1 Cor. 15:22: “In Adam all are dying.”
Gen. 3:19: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very
power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor
wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”
Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”
John 5:28, 29: “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Jesus] and come out
Acts 24:15: “I have hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
John 11:11, 14-44: “[Jesus said to his disciples:] ‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’ . . . Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’ . . . When Jesus arrived, he found he [Lazarus] had already been four days in the memorial tomb. . . . Jesus said to her [Martha, a sister of Lazarus]: ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’ . . . He cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’ The man that had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his countenance was bound about with a cloth. Jesus said to them: ‘Loose him and let him go.
check your own bibles too ...hope this helps
that is the whole reason for the resurrection and the bible states that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, so that covers those who never got a chance to learn about Jesus so Bono's father is not burning in Hell and he is not in heaven he is asleep in death waiting for Jesus to wake him up in the resurrection
Rom. 5:12, 17, 19: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned
1 Cor. 15:22: “In Adam all are dying.”
Gen. 3:19: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very
power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor
wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”
Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”
John 5:28, 29: “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Jesus] and come out
Acts 24:15: “I have hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
John 11:11, 14-44: “[Jesus said to his disciples:] ‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’ . . . Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’ . . . When Jesus arrived, he found he [Lazarus] had already been four days in the memorial tomb. . . . Jesus said to her [Martha, a sister of Lazarus]: ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’ . . . He cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’ The man that had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his countenance was bound about with a cloth. Jesus said to them: ‘Loose him and let him go.
check your own bibles too ...hope this helps
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Mrs. Edge said:
When we say God is Holy, it means that God cannot have sin in His presense.
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. When God looks at the believe, He does not see us, he sees Jesus.
Thus, we can be admitted into His presense.
There is a difference between Christian sects and denominations when it comes to this. Some believe that you do not need to be Christian to be saved. Therefore when you read people's posts here, you should keep in mind that what they are saying is not an absolute truth in the Christian world.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
I'm not arguing from a certain sects perspective. I am working from Scripture.
There are some who reject portions or passages. There are others who add new passages.
I think there is no room around Jesus' own words in John 14:6.
There are some who reject portions or passages. There are others who add new passages.
I think there is no room around Jesus' own words in John 14:6.
nbcrusader said:
Many people, including scholars would disagree with you on a number of accounts. Just from personal memory of courses I'd taken - some argue that you cannot possibly assert with 100% certainty that Jesus said this (or other things attributed to him) verbatim, some argue that you cannot assert that Jesus was speaking universally rather than to the local population struggling with particular issues at that particular time in the world's history, etc.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
yes, that's my whole problem with this. it's always the certainty with which faith is professed, when the existence of faith necessarily implies having doubt. otherwise you'd know, and i don't think even people of strong faith can say that they "know," only that they believe, and this should necessarily extend to respect for all other religions -- this respect coming from the bond that should be created by people of faith, as opposed to members of the same religion. faith comes from thought, and is a powerful thing. i cannot, for example, trust a line of thought that is punctuated by the line "this is what i believe." i can, however, trust (though not necessarily agree with) a line of thought that is punctuated by the line "this is what i think." the former is passive, the latter is active. i'm sure there are many people out there who have examined their faith, and i suppose i am sympathetic to someone who does this first, and then actively chooses to believe something. that is evidence of an active mind, and perhaps quite empowering as well -- choice is evidence of freedom and autonomy. but the awareness of the fact that a "choice" has been made must necessarily include seeds of doubt, which should then, theoretically, undermine any assertion of the superiority of one's faith over another, and ultimately be a simultaneously empowering and humbling act. it's one thing to believe, it is another to choose to have faith.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
anitram said:
In that case, we can disassemble and discard the entire Gospel, creating God in our own image - all in the name of scholarship.
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DrTeeth
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
stammer476 said:
So if for whatever reason you've never heard of Jesus, you are either screwed, or God has some kind of back-up plan in which case I don't understand why he doesn't apply it to everyone but sent his son to die for us instead. Here is where all of this stops making sense to me.
nbcrusader said:
I think that's an overly simplistic way of looking at things.
And your argument does partially arise from a specific sect point of view, because you are basing it entirely on Scripture, when the majority of the world's Christians do not see the Bible as the final authority. Whether you agree or disagree with that, I think it's important to point out the dogmatic differences.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Simplistic perhaps, but a logical extension of what religion creates. New sets of rules, new authorities, new beliefs.
I guess we would have to open a discussion of what constitutes a Christian and the belief set that is indisputable.
I guess we would have to open a discussion of what constitutes a Christian and the belief set that is indisputable.
blueyedpoet
Refugee
Every sect and every denomination claims to only be taking what God's word tells them. I love this discussion by the way....it's nice to have something other than politics in here.
Someone wrote earlier that this kind of discussion humanizes God which makes it harder to believe in God. I think this is something very important. God can't be "the bigger person" because he isn't a person. Nevertheless consider this form of logic. What does it take for one person to be "the bigger person"?
I'm sure in the end most of us would agree that love is the requirment for grace and forgiveness. God - or whatever word you like best for the Spirit - is often referred to as Love in many different belief systems as Love. So, we can deduce that God embodies what it means to be "the bigger person."
I also wonder, do we spend too much time worrying about heaven and hell here on earth instead of living a life of heaven now?
Someone wrote earlier that this kind of discussion humanizes God which makes it harder to believe in God. I think this is something very important. God can't be "the bigger person" because he isn't a person. Nevertheless consider this form of logic. What does it take for one person to be "the bigger person"?
I'm sure in the end most of us would agree that love is the requirment for grace and forgiveness. God - or whatever word you like best for the Spirit - is often referred to as Love in many different belief systems as Love. So, we can deduce that God embodies what it means to be "the bigger person."
I also wonder, do we spend too much time worrying about heaven and hell here on earth instead of living a life of heaven now?
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
anitram said:
Agreed. Possibly to the point where some of it is no longer Christianity.
shrmn8rpoptart
War Child
I have a question for some people...how does one accept Jesus? if an action that i perform is responsible for my salvation, doesn't that mean that I have the power to save my own soul, and that I don't need Christ? this is the whole "decision theology" that I find a little backwards, but nonetheless, i would like to be educated on the matter...
MadelynIris
Refugee
But are you willing to put aside your ego and believe?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Everyone one will get their chance to know who God is, be it from age 9 or on their deathbead, or even after. It's then your decision to accept or reject.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
shrmn8rpoptart said:
The extent of your "power" is to accept that you are a sinner, believe that Christ died on the cross for you and choose to believe and follow Him. Salvation is the gift. All you have to do is accept it. Thus, you cannot do it without Christ because He essentially is the gift.
shrmn8rpoptart
War Child
isn't faith a gift from the Holy Spirit as well though? It seems like if I can accept Christ on my own, there is no room for the HS. From what I understand, Faith is given through the Word and through Baptism, and it is nourished through communion.
It has been explained to me that we are all Lazerus...that is we are all dead in sin, yet we are given life again through Christ. But Lazerus did not choose to live again, his resurrection was done completely without him. However, once he became alive again, he still had the power to commit suicide. So we are dead in sin, but are resurrected through Christ without any effort on our part. The only "choice" that we can make is to turn away from God.
It has been explained to me that we are all Lazerus...that is we are all dead in sin, yet we are given life again through Christ. But Lazerus did not choose to live again, his resurrection was done completely without him. However, once he became alive again, he still had the power to commit suicide. So we are dead in sin, but are resurrected through Christ without any effort on our part. The only "choice" that we can make is to turn away from God.
MadelynIris
Refugee
Thanks to John Calvin.
Presbyterian? Edge is Presbyterian ya know.
shrmn8rpoptart
War Child
actually that's not a calvinist view...it's lutheran
blueyedpoet
Refugee
If we take the Calvin line of logic we arrive at a very dangerous place: none of us are morally responsible.
If we do not have choice (real choice) then it is to be said that we are without free will. And, without free will it is impossible to be held responsible for our will. I can explain this in greater detail if anyone wants.
If we do not have choice (real choice) then it is to be said that we are without free will. And, without free will it is impossible to be held responsible for our will. I can explain this in greater detail if anyone wants.
shrmn8rpoptart
War Child
blueyedpoet said:
you can explain further...but i would recommend reading "the bondage of the will" by luther. he explains that we are in bondage to sin, and will always choose death over life (in the eternal sense). so we choose to sin, and choose to turn away from God, therefore, we are responsible for our sin, and deserve to be justly punnished for it.
blueyedpoet
Refugee
Ah, we get to go into the free will versus determinism!
I'm actually taking a class right now at UCLA as a philosophy student on this very topic. That doesn't mean I have any answers of course. It just means I'm knee deep in material with people thinking they do. Calvin believed in predestination. He believed that God created us and essentially picked which of us would follow him and which wouldn't. (Simplified of course)
This seems to eliminate choice. It is far beyond me to figure out how you can hold someone responsible if they didn't have a choice.
Think of it this way: You are running on time to a friend's house. You come to a stop. There is a quick path to your friend's house and a long path. The shorter path is closed off. You have to take the longer route. You are late to your friends. Is your friend going to be mad at you for being late once he knows you had to take the long route?
I'm actually taking a class right now at UCLA as a philosophy student on this very topic. That doesn't mean I have any answers of course. It just means I'm knee deep in material with people thinking they do. Calvin believed in predestination. He believed that God created us and essentially picked which of us would follow him and which wouldn't. (Simplified of course)
This seems to eliminate choice. It is far beyond me to figure out how you can hold someone responsible if they didn't have a choice.
Think of it this way: You are running on time to a friend's house. You come to a stop. There is a quick path to your friend's house and a long path. The shorter path is closed off. You have to take the longer route. You are late to your friends. Is your friend going to be mad at you for being late once he knows you had to take the long route?
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Macfistowannabe
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
U2democrat said:nbcrusader you're doing a greaet job contributing to this thread.
Keep up the good work.
Macfistowannabe
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
After trying to live my life as an atheist for a year, I realized how empty I was without him. Without God, the world is dark. With God, you have faith in what the world may find impossible - eternal life. I also believe that God created man, rather than the other way around. In return for this, I believe that we owe ourselves to God rather than this miserable world. The world is so dark, so far from God to understand the meaning of life. The meaning of life for me is unconditional forgiveness, unconditional love, and unconditional truth.kobayashi said:
