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#481 | ||||
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,943
Local Time: 07:09 AM
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The problem of Bin Ladin and Al Quada and their attempts to attack the United States and other US interest around the world precedes the Bush administration by many years. Since the formation of Al Quada up to the time of the 9/11 attacks, The Presidential administration that had been in office the longest and had the most time to track down and kill Al Quada members belongs to the Clinton administration. Quote:
2. The threat that Saddam posed was not solely based simply on what Saddam had on hand as far as WMD in March 2003. It was based on his previous history of invasions and attacks on countries in the region. His years of refusal to cooperate with UN inspectors. The break down of the weapons embargo and sanctions regime designed to contain Saddam and prevent him from getting new conventional weapons as well as materials for WMD. The primary goal was to PREVENT Saddam from obtaining the weapons and materials he would need to help carry out the operations he had done in the past. There were only two options to prevent him from doing this, regime change and containment. Containment started to fail after the year 2000 with the erosion of the sanctions and weapons embargo. With containment crumbling, the only option left was regime change. Quote:
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#482 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS Join Date: May 2005
Location: FLA
Posts: 5,384
Local Time: 02:09 AM
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Strongbow other than Iraq and 9/11 which you make the great argument how great he did pray tell me what his other great accomplishments were..........
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#483 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,943
Local Time: 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Both operations in Iraq and Afghanistan have been large multi-national operations. It was under Bush's leadership that the NATO alliance has been involved in its first military operations outside of Europe. Bush also helped to expand the size of the US military, buy new weapon systems that have saved US lives, helped to create a US military that is more prepared for the diverse challenges it could face in the future. On the economic front, the average unemployment rate under Bush during his 8 years in office was only about 5.3%, similar to Clintons 5.2% rate. Inflation was also generally low during his time in office. The average poverty rate under Bush was the lowest since the Nixon years. Average debt as a percentage of GDP was also relatively the same as during the Clinton administration despite increases in the annual figure in the last years of the administration. Even BONO acknowledges that Bush's debt relief and efforts to fight aids in Africa have been impressive. So, those are a few things. |
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#484 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS Join Date: May 2005
Location: FLA
Posts: 5,384
Local Time: 02:09 AM
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Can I also bring up some steller moments myself?
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#485 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS Join Date: May 2005
Location: FLA
Posts: 5,384
Local Time: 02:09 AM
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Since I didn't get the thumbs up from you, I am going on ahead to put up these great moments in dubya's history:
Katrina: "Brownie your doing a heck of a job". You prolly love that picture of Bush gazing down from on high while flying back from Crawford while a US city was drowning. Mission Accomplished - wow our victory in Iraq was so complete we're still spilling blood and treasure to this day. TARP - this one I believe really pisses off the Ditto head Nation. While they slam Obama for giving the theives on Wall Street a truckload of OUR money, don't forget Bush gave them there first payment. Didn't sign Kyoto Sending our troops into harms way which you said had to be done not because: a>. WMD's in Iraq b>. connection to Bin LAden c>. Yellow cake but to stop a regime that had NOTHING to do w/ 9/11 WITHOUT BODY ARMOUR. The lives that you so easily say was worth the ultimate sacrifice were not given proper body armour or reinforced HumVees - all worth it though right? Limiting stem cell research - while we know how precious life is (not including all of the US military men and women, coalition men and all of those innocent Iraqi's lives) we really had to roll back to like 1800's on this front. That CIA Terror Memo that I just keep bringing up titled: Bin Laden Determined to Strike US, while I know he was at Crawford when hearing this his little brain capacity was on vacation he prolly should have acted upon this. Please I'm just getting started can I go on??????????????? |
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#486 | |||||||||
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,669
Local Time: 02:09 AM
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And didn't we help put the Taliban in power? Quote:
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North Korea has these same issues, too, and I don't hear anyone talk about invading them. Quote:
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Plus, you know, there were other countries that didn't like the way the Bush administration handled things. Does that mean, then, they have the right to come in and take out our leader? They may feel we could've use a "regime change". Quote:
You're the one who said that the U.S. interests here and abroad have been more successfully protected. I'm just watching the news of late and wondering where you get the idea that that's so. Angela |
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#487 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 01:09 AM
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#488 |
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,647
Local Time: 02:09 AM
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Here's a helpful hint for all our game show participants:
It's really not worth trying to win an argument with someone who has never conceded a single point in debate. |
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#489 |
Refugee
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,100
Local Time: 03:09 AM
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He wouldn't be the first
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#490 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 01:09 AM
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I don't think we should hold that against Bush. I think Bush could be blamed for appointing the like-minded ultra-fiscal-conservative Paulson who allowed Bear-Stearns to collapse and exacerbated the original problem. |
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#491 |
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,647
Local Time: 02:09 AM
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#492 | ||||||||||||
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,943
Local Time: 07:09 AM
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The big difference is that Bush took much more decisive action by invading Afghanistan and removing Al Quada's biggest supporters, the Taliban from power there as well as destroying much of Al quada's base of operations there. Quote:
The Taliban were able to rebuild some of its forces and then headed back into Afghanistan to cause trouble which is why the violence levels starting increasing in Afghanistan in 2006 after having been relatively low for several years. The Taliban was formed in 1993-1994 along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border area. They had aid from Pakistan because Pakistan wanted to use them to counter elements that became the Northern Alliance because it felt they were pro-Indian and a potential threat to its security. The United States had nothing to do with the formation of the Taliban. All US aid to Afghanistan had stopped 5 years earlier when the Russians finally withdrew from the country. Quote:
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The United States did give Iraq Trucks, transport helicopters, computers, as well as money to buy food during the 1980s. It also gave Iraq intelligence on the Iranian military. But it did NOT supply Iraq with conventional or unconventional weapons in the 1980s. Iraq got the majority of its weapons as well as training for its military from the Soviet Union. Quote:
When it comes to biological or chemical weapons, the United States already got rid or dismantled its stock piles many years ago. These are the types of WMD that Saddam had manufactured and used in the past and the US and international community were concerned Saddam either had re-armed or would be able to re-arm with such weapons given the collapse the sanctions and weapons embargo against Iraq and Saddam's failure to completely verifiably disarm of all WMD in front of UN inspection teams. Quote:
1. Saddam's Iraq has invaded and launched large scale attacks, unprovoked, against 4 independent counties. North Korea has not done anything like this except for the Korean war 70 years ago, which given that Korea had just been recently divided could be regarded as an internal conflict or civil war, not just a conflict between large foreign powers. The Korean pennisula has been relatively peaceful for 67 years with regards to war or major conflict. 2. Saddam's Iraq is located in a part of the world that is vital to global energy supply and the global economy. Saddam's close proximity allowed him to potentially sieze or sabotage energy supply that is vital to the rest of the world. North Korea is not located in area where it could threatened something that is so valuable to the rest of the planet. 3. While the North Korean's have been rather passive in their behavior since the end of the Korean war relative to someone like Saddam, it is true that the country is armed to the teeth. North Korea has the worlds second largest collection of artillery, much of it placed on the DMZ with the south. Thousands of artillery pieces on the northern side of the border are in easy range of Seoul South Korea which has a metropolitan population of 10 million people. Were talking only 30 to 40 miles. So any war that would occur today on the Korean pennisula would start off with millions of people being in the crossfire. This unique situation does not exist anywhere else in the world and was one of the chief reasons the Clinton administration was detered from taking military action in 1994 against North Korea's nuclear program. In addition, North Korea has chemical and biological weapons stockpiles that they can use with their artillery. Then there is the fact that now they do have nuclear weapons which could be placed on ballistic missiles to hit other places in Asia like Japan. With Saddam's Iraq in 2003, the goal was to remove the more limited stockpiles he had, but more importantly to prevent him from rebuilding the size and type of forces he had before he invaded Kuwait in 1990. One of the reasons to remove Saddam in 2003 was to prevent him from building up an arsonal like North Korea has today which in many ways is now a deterent to the international community in terms of using force because of the large cost that would be involved. Fortunately, North Korea has not engaged in the types of aggression that Saddam did while he was in power, which makes North Korea much less of a threat despite their possession of a large military force and WMD. North Korea is also bordered by 3 countries with large military forces, South Korea, China, and Russia. North Korea is also not in an area that is vital to global energy supply like Saddam's Iraq. Saddam's Iraq was bordered by multiple countries that were relatively weak from a military perspective, relative to Saddam's Iraq. To sum up, its consistent aggressive behavior + the possession of large military forces and WMD that made Saddam's Iraq a threat that eventually had to be removed. North Korea does not have the consistent aggressive behavior part of the equation. It has not invaded another country in 70 years. This is the big difference with Saddam. North Korea has also not used WMD against a foreign country like Saddam has. Finally, the area of the world that Saddam's Iraq is located in is very valuable to the global economy but also very vulnerable given the geo-military-political situation. Quote:
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The United States did not supply Iraq with weapons. The United States and the international community put stiff sanctions and a weapons embargo on Saddam following the 1991 Gulf War which resulted from his unprovoked invasion of Kuwait. At that time Saddam had to be either removed or somehow contained. The US and international community went with containment because it was less costly and no one believed at the time Saddam would still be in power 5 years later. But after 12 long years of UN inspections, sanctions, and bombing by US aircraft and missiles, Saddam not only had successfully remained in power, but removed the UN inspectors from his country and had seen the sanctions and weapons embargo regime designed to contain him crumble. The collapse of containment left only one option for dealing with Saddam, regime change. Quote:
So this was not some willy nilly, we don't like you, so were going to take you out event. It was done in with the approval of the United Nations and was legal under international law. Quote:
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#493 |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,246
Local Time: 03:09 AM
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totally disagree. i've been in here since 2003/4. i've never met a bigger automaton on either side. your most stalwart leftists -- myself, Melon, anitram, martha -- as well as long-gone right wingers like nbcrusader are able to give and take like adults. not so with our favorite borderline autistic. |
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#494 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,943
Local Time: 07:09 AM
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#495 |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,246
Local Time: 03:09 AM
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it's true, i'm awful. i'm the worst poster ever. all i do is slam people. no one ever has had a good exchange with me. i always bring the discussion down to my level. i've never conceded a point. i've never made a relevant contribution. people always get exasperated with me because i repeat the same old information over and over and over. i'm on everyone's ignore list. people run away screaming when i enter a thread. maybe one day, just for once, i'll stop. but not now. my long history on this forum has proved the point that i'm incapable of rationally discussing an issue.
clearly, i'm the problem here. |
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#496 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,943
Local Time: 07:09 AM
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#497 |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,669
Local Time: 02:09 AM
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*Debating whether to continue argument or listen to Diemen*
Whatever happened to nbcrusader? I liked talking to him ![]() Angela |
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#498 |
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,647
Local Time: 02:09 AM
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#499 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,943
Local Time: 07:09 AM
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Well the following is in the forum rules:
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I know that moderators in the past would never have been ok with myself or others refering to other forum members that way. How does refering to another forum member in that way contribute ANYTHING to any of the topics or threads in this forum? |
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#500 | |
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,647
Local Time: 02:09 AM
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Hmm...
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![]() I have asked everyone to stick to the topic at hand, and I ask you to do the same. I have also asked those who found it necessary to ignore members to stick to it. If you have a complaint over another member's post, report it instead of taking it upon yourself to lecture them in-thread. |
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