Israel

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

Europeans didn't want to have to deal with the Jewish refugees from World War II so they demanded Palestinians cough up half of their land.

Ding ding ding.

I don't mean this as opposition to or support of either side, but I think the window of international support for Israel is rapidly closing. Especially in the US, the people who seem to be the loudest advocates for Israel are people who grew up with World War II as a prominent part of the lives, either in fact or in legend: essentially Baby Boomers, the ones who see WWII as the all-encompassing good vs evil war. As that generation fades from political prominence, Israel will become less and less a priority in the USA. My impression is that other Western countries are not terribly sympathetic to Israel - hell, in Montreal a few weeks ago I saw Hasidic Jews marching in favor of Palestinians, carrying Israeli flags with a giant red x over them. I think Israel would be wise to broker a dual-state agreement with the Palestinians in the near future.

[PhilsFan]

But is that even possible? I think we may have passed a point of no return.

[Vlad n U 2]

https://cache6.pinboard.in/bangpound...b47/index.html

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

But is that even possible? I think we may have passed a point of no return.

I think you may be right here, both sides are in far too deep now to just stop and go back to ceasefire... it's a gigantic mess.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

https://cache6.pinboard.in/bangpound...b47/index.html

I guess it's cached because someone kindly pointed that writer to Article III c) of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide?


It's also applicable to individuals

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Ding ding ding.

I don't mean this as opposition to or support of either side, but I think the window of international support for Israel is rapidly closing. Especially in the US, the people who seem to be the loudest advocates for Israel are people who grew up with World War II as a prominent part of the lives, either in fact or in legend: essentially Baby Boomers, the ones who see WWII as the all-encompassing good vs evil war. As that generation fades from political prominence, Israel will become less and less a priority in the USA. My impression is that other Western countries are not terribly sympathetic to Israel - hell, in Montreal a few weeks ago I saw Hasidic Jews marching in favor of Palestinians, carrying Israeli flags with a giant red x over them. I think Israel would be wise to broker a dual-state agreement with the Palestinians in the near future.

I see strongest support for Israel to respond with any and all means necessary strongest amongst politicized conservative Christians.




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[nbelcik]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I see strongest support for Israel to respond with any and all means necessary strongest amongst politicized conservative Christians.




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Because many of them believe that in order for the End Times occur, the Jewish people need to have their own state. It all has to do with biblical prophecy.


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[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

But is that even possible?

I think so - if there is a two-state solution that gives Palestine an economically viable area. Don't quote me on this, but I seem to remember past proposals giving a land-locked area with virtually no growth opportunities to the Palestinians.

[Jacobite]

Good blog post here:

Why is the Left so nonchalant about anti-Semitism?


Barton Creeth on 31 July 2014 95 Comments
2,698 views

sluggerotoole.com/2014/07/31/why-is-the-left-so-nonchalant-about-anti-semitism/

[Jacobite]

Originally Posted by anitram

I think it's very interesting that Israel is the only nation in the world that has a "right" to exist. That term is simply not bandied about anywhere else.

Why don't Chechnya or Kurdistan have a "right" to exist?

Can the world not tolerate just one small Jewish state? Because it seems to me are plenty of Muslim, Christian and secular ones.

[Jacobite]

Originally Posted by deep

The disturbing thing about your statement is that you or I could live in Israel.

All we would have to do is convert and immigrate. We could even get good housing in a settlement on land stolen from Palestinians that have been there for hundreds of years. They are removed from their homes and put behind barricades while non-middle eastern people are invited in by Israel to take over their property.

That is true, and doesn't entirely sit well with me, but consider that the recent outbreak of anti-semitism in Europe particularly makes it more likely that long-settled European Jews will avail of right to return. Hence, in a sense, validating the rationale for Israel's existence in the first place, arguably.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Jacobite

Can the world not tolerate just one small Jewish state? Because it seems to me are plenty of Muslim, Christian and secular ones.

While anti-Semirism is certainly at play when it comes to (in)toleration of Israel's existence, might Israel not rest a little easier if it ended settlements and didn't mow down Gaze every 3 years or so? It seems there are actions taken by right wing Israeli politicians that foment anti-semitism and make Israelis less safe.


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[Jacobite]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

While anti-Semirism is certainly at play when it comes to (in)toleration of Israel's existence, might Israel not rest a little easier if it ended settlements and didn't mow down Gaze every 3 years or so? It seems there are actions taken by right wing Israeli politicians that foment anti-semitism and make Israelis less safe.


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I'm not sure if I'd entirely agree with the assumption or thesis that these are actions taken by right wing Israeli politicians with limited public support.

According to what I've read most of the Israeli left, with the exception perhaps of the far left, largely support Netanyahu on security issues.

[Irvine511]

In didn't say the public agreed or disagreed -- therebis diversity of opinion within Israel -- I just noted that Netanyahu is a right wing politician.


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[Jacobite]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

In didn't say the public agreed or disagreed -- therebis diversity of opinion within Israel -- I just noted that Netanyahu is a right wing politician.

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He is on the right for sure but has high popularity ratings among left wing Israeli voters on security issues - not on economic issues.

Israel does not need the approval of the bien pensant left in Europe or elsewhere to protect itself, and with all due respect it does not need you or me to tell them what we adjudge may or may not be in their own interests. We're not the ones with the responsibility to make those decisions in a world where the "peace" + "justice for Gaza" movements are hi-jacked by blatant Jew hate and tired worn myths cribbed from the Elders of Zion protocols, and too many in that movement fail to dissociate themselves from it, a world where, for example, in a country that suffered badly in the European financial and debt crisis but has hardly any Jews living in it, let alone Jews in influential positions, 69% of population say the JOOS are the ones to blame.

http://global100.adl.org/#map/weurope

[nbelcik]

Originally Posted by Jacobite

Good blog post here:

sluggerotoole.com/2014/07/31/why-is-the-left-so-nonchalant-about-anti-semitism/

Good article and I'd have to agree with it. Too bad this conflict is causing increasing hate on both sides. http://m.vice.com/read/israeli-racis...-kleinfeld-511 Racists Are Rampaging Through Israel via Vice


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[Irvine511]

No country on earth has carte blanche to whatever it pleases to whomever it pleases and not be subjected to criticism and protests, fair or not, especially when there is a large loss of civilian life.

It can all be debated, and this is a complex situation, but Israel is not above criticism nor intenational law, no matter how ugly their opposition might be.


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[Jacobite]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

No country on earth has carte blanche to whatever it pleases to whomever it pleases and not be subjected to criticism and protests, fair or not, especially when there is a large loss of civilian life.

It can all be debated, and this is a complex situation, but Israel is not above criticism nor intentsruonal law, no matter how ugly their opposition might be.


Sent from

Agreed here.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

No country on earth has carte blanche to whatever it pleases to whomever it pleases and not be subjected to criticism and protests, fair or not, especially when there is a large loss of civilian life.

It can all be debated, and this is a complex situation, but Israel is not above criticism nor intenational law, no matter how ugly their opposition might be.

Well put. And in order to get a balanced view on that situation, it must be acknowledged that opposition to Israel is not necessarily anti-Semitism. I think that equation is still prominent in US political discourse and needs to be abandoned. That's not to say that anti-Semitism has disappeared or is unimportant, but rather that there are numerous reasons to criticize Israel that have nothing to do with the Jewish element.

[Jacobite]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Well put. And in order to get a balanced view on that situation, it must be acknowledged that opposition to Israel is not necessarily anti-Semitism. I think that equation is still prominent in US political discourse and needs to be abandoned. That's not to say that anti-Semitism has disappeared or is unimportant, but rather that there are numerous reasons to criticize Israel that have nothing to do with the Jewish element.

Here's a balanced view, then:

Addressing the reasons for the genuinely disproportionate global interest in Israel means comparing and contrasting. To other wars. To other death tolls. Hamas to the IRA. The IDF’s methods to other militaries’ around the world. But when massive bodycounts, actual genocides and truly brutal occupations are used during conversations in defence of Israel the supporter of Palestine buries his head in the sand and says ‘whataboutery, whataboutery’. It matters not that all the attention focused on Israel and ignorance of other much bigger conflicts are probably ominous manifestations of cultural antisemitism embedded in the fabric of western civilisation. Comparisons and statistics are whataboutery, and to be dismissed as Zionist propaganda.

Hamas’ charter contains the following line: ‘The time (of Resurrection) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: o Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!’ These are the people Israel is expected to make peace with. Is it at all possible that for all their talk of peacemaking European and American leaders know what would happen if they were to isolate Israel and refuse to assist it economically and militarily? Of course they do. An Israel forsaken by its allies would soon find itself circled by vultures, vultures that have been humiliated by the seeming ease in which Israel has established a liberal, democratic, prosperous nation with cutting edge universities, a booming tech industry and world class research and development facilities. All this in mere decades, while the Arab world (with few exceptions) has stagnated and regressed. Even cities like Dubai and Doha, while producing extraordinary wealth and impressive architectural marvels, fall way short culturally. Qatari and Emirati musicians and novelists don’t fill up concert halls and win literary prizes. Israeli artists and scientists on the other hand are ubiquitous and world-renowned.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/westerners-who-wish-to-isolate-israel-are-dangerously-naive/