George Zimmerman, the killer of young Trayvon Martin, was found 'not guilty'.

[deep]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

without being adjusted per capita - show a larger number - not proportion - of blacks than whites. The adjusted ratio ends up being somewhere around 16 to 1

so if that sickle cell disease got on steroids and sent all the black people to Jesus
we would only have 6.25% the crime
93 reduction on police calls and court time
most prisons would be near empty, we probably would have enough government resources to give free health care and free higher education.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

However, the vast majority of them are good kids who I expect will go on to great success. I can name only a handful that seem to be headed down the wrong track. But here's the thing: I could say the same if I taught white kids. There are issues in the black community, sure, but suggesting such a saintly standard for black boys is frankly another kind of racism.

Sean - I was using the extreme to make the point that in some way - each race is both culpable and capable. Perceptions can be changed. I do not seriously think that urban black men will need to do all the things I listed to "ease the fear" that other races may feel toward them (although it would be great if ALL races were known for those things, but that is my Christian hope).

I am happy to hear (and not surprised) that most of the kids you're mentoring are on the right path.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by deep

so if that sickle cell disease got on steroids and sent all the black people to Jesus
we would only have 6.25% the crime
93 reduction on police calls and court time
most prisons would be near empty, we probably would have enough government resources to give free health care and free higher education.

speaking of spinning people's words. But completely in line with the garbage I've heard regarding this case

Deep, consider a statistics course

[deep]

any talk of skin color and crime, as justifying treating (or behaving differently towards) people going about their daily lives is just idiotic,
loopy replies are on par and in order

[AEON]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

If you don't feel that there is inherently something wrong with most black people (barring the exceptions), please by all means clarify.

I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with black people. And I think by getting involved and being a positive role model (which you are doing), is the best anyone can do.

I think we as a nation are trying to somehow understand/solve the racial troubles as best we can.

I think what you said above is probably the answer - time. It isn't sexy, but it may be all we got.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by deep

any talk of skin color and crime, as justifying treating (or behaving differently towards) people going about their daily lives is just idiotic,
loopy replies are on par and in order

You're smarter than this, man. Go back and read the exchange

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

But even you're interpreting the statistics wrong here. If we're assuming one should be fearful of an individual based on crime statistics, then fearing a black person is still 3 times more rational. We're talking about the likelyhood of a person of a specific race being prone to committing a crime (I'm still operating under the assumption stated above which I don't ascribe to). A random black person on the street would be 3 times more likely to commit a crime than a random white person. The overall percentage of people making up that race in the country is completely irrelevant. Statistics don't work that way. And when we then delve into homicide rates, regardless of the 6 to 1 ratio of whites to blacks, the base numbers alone - without being adjusted per capita - show a larger number - not proportion - of blacks than whites. The adjusted ratio ends up being somewhere around 16 to 1. Now I'm only bringing this up because of the article; really it has nothing to do with the Zimmerman/Martin trial. But pretending a problem isn't a problem by playing fast and loose (and flat out wrong) with statistics isn't helping anything

Fair enough. I went back and looked more carefully both at the quote from the original article and your response and I see what you mean.

Do you discard the premise of the article as whole then? Is the media emphasis on "black on black" crime well founded, in your opinion. Are black people really more dangerous than white people? Would you suggest that they are more dangerous to each other or more dangerous to white people also? And if so, why is that and how can this problem be solved?

Here's my caution. You are an extraordinarily rational person--which I respect--but you understand that the vast majority of people don't live in such a hyper-rational world. Thus solutions need be rational, factual yes, but they need to also consider other aspects of how humans operate in the world. I can agree that massaging the numbers or manipulating the statistics is not helpful. But I also can't just show up in my classroom and tell my boys, "statistically you boys are 3 times more likely to commit a crime than the boys down the road at Eastwood." There has to be something more than that, you know what I mean. And I'm just curious as to what you think that "more than that" would be.

[maycocksean]

Here's the blog post I wrote on the "Ground Rules for a Conversation About Race". Rules I'm happy to say we've all followed for the most part on this thread and in this forum.

Here in America: Ground Rules for A Conversation About Race

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Fair enough. I went back and looked more carefully both at the quote from the original article and your response and I see what you mean.

I appreciate that you took the time

Do you discard the premise of the article as whole then? Is the media emphasis on "black on black" crime well founded, in your opinion. Are black people really more dangerous than white people? Would you suggest that they are more dangerous to each other or more dangerous to white people also? And if so, why is that and how can this problem be solved?

I discard the idea that black on black crime is anything more than a non sequitur with regard to this case. It seems it's being used to deflect attention from the fact that racism is still an issue in your country. And mine. And everywhere else. The answer to "does the US have a racism problem?" isn't "well, black men are more likely to kill other black men". It doesn't even make sense. I would argue that racism didn't play much of a role in the Z/M case, if any, but at least it started up a dialog. It would be best to leave the trial behind and talk about overarching issues rather than shoehorning them where they might not fit. (we can disagree on this)
Are black people more dangerous than white people? Inherently, no. Is there a rather large statistical difference between violent crimes between races? yes. Is it because people are of different races? I don't see how that could possibly be. I'd be interested in seeing the stats further broken down into income levels. That would be more revealing.
Do statistics show that black people are more violent to one another than to white people? Yes. Is it because black people have some sort of ingrained nature to be violent to one another? I don't see how that could possibly be the case. More than likely, it's because people in poorer neighbourhoods are more likely to commit crime on those around them and statistically, black families have a lower median income than white families.
It's economic, not racial. But the economics are determined racially (and racist-ly). I'm sure if we took a census of all the black people living in upper class neighbourhoods, the crimerates would be indistinguishable from their neighbours.

Here's my caution. You are an extraordinarily rational person--which I respect--but you understand that the vast majority of people don't live in such a hyper-rational world. Thus solutions need be rational, factual yes, but they need to also consider other aspects of how humans operate in the world. I can agree that massaging the numbers or manipulating the statistics is not helpful. But I also can't just show up in my classroom and tell my boys, "statistically you boys are 3 times more likely to commit a crime than the boys down the road at Eastwood." There has to be something more than that, you know what I mean. And I'm just curious as to what you think that "more than that" would be.

Well this is the million dollar question. I guess I would say children in lower class neighbourhoods (of all skin colours) need that extra mentoring. There's obviously some sort of pull toward violent crime that becomes less powerful the further up the economic ladder you go. A proportionate pull in the other direction seems like it could provide some sort of answer... but how do you gauge that? And where do you find all these mentors? I'm not sure I'm qualified to give that kind of advice. I'm not close enough to it to fully understand the dynamics
But despite everything, the boys in your classroom aren't statistics; statistics are in the past. Statistics are has-beens. It's important for them, and people in general, to remember that

[deep]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

You're smarter than this, man. Go back and read the exchange

that article that you responded to, that Sean posted, I could not finish it. Again, I think it is silly to discuss crime in relationship to skin color of the perpetrator.

I do think the second link he posted, the link to a black kids FB page post is worthwhile in this discussion about the senseless killing of TM.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I appreciate that you took the time



I discard the idea that black on black crime is anything more than a non sequitur with regard to this case. It seems it's being used to deflect attention from the fact that racism is still an issue in your country. And mine. And everywhere else. The answer to "does the US have a racism problem?" isn't "well, black men are more likely to kill other black men". It doesn't even make sense. I would argue that racism didn't play much of a role in the Z/M case, if any, but at least it started up a dialog. It would be best to leave the trial behind and talk about overarching issues rather than shoehorning them where they might not fit. (we can disagree on this)
Are black people more dangerous than white people? Inherently, no. Is there a rather large statistical difference between violent crimes between races? yes. Is it because people are of different races? I don't see how that could possibly be. I'd be interested in seeing the stats further broken down into income levels. That would be more revealing.
Do statistics show that black people are more violent to one another than to white people? Yes. Is it because black people have some sort of ingrained nature to be violent to one another? I don't see how that could possibly be the case. More than likely, it's because people in poorer neighbourhoods are more likely to commit crime on those around them and statistically, black families have a lower median income than white families.
It's economic, not racial. But the economics are determined racially (and racist-ly). I'm sure if we took a census of all the black people living in upper class neighbourhoods, the crimerates would be indistinguishable from their neighbours.





Well this is the million dollar question. I guess I would say children in lower class neighbourhoods (of all skin colours) need that extra mentoring. There's obviously some sort of pull toward violent crime that becomes less powerful the further up the economic ladder you go. A proportionate pull in the other direction seems like it could provide some sort of answer... but how do you gauge that? And where do you find all these mentors? I'm not sure I'm qualified to give that kind of advice. I'm not close enough to it to fully understand the dynamics
But despite everything, the boys in your classroom aren't statistics; statistics are in the past. Statistics are has-beens. It's important for them, and people in general, to remember that

Damn good post.

I have to think some more on everything you said and it's getting late. But. . .damn good post.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by deep

that article that you responded to, that Sean posted, I could not finish it. Again, I think it is silly to discuss crime in relationship to skin color of the perpetrator.

I do think the second link he posted, the link to a black kids FB page post is worthwhile in this discussion about the senseless killing of TM.

Well to fill you in, I was responding to a sloppy statistical analysis and was framing my argument in the way the writer of that article was (and a way that I made a point of saying I didn't agree with). Then you took that and extrapolated something about me believing if all the black people died of sickle cell anemia, the prisons would be empty

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

Irvine, seriously now - do you really think the leaders of either party really care about the urban black male - or women, or white men, or veterans, or zombies, or anything other than what establishes and maintains their ability to allocate wealth to themselves and to their backers?

I watched Season One of "House of Cards" a little while back - I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it's how I perceive politicians of both parties: ruthless, charming, smart, opportunistic, amoral, and - again - ruthless. Those who try to do the right thing are quickly marginalized, discredited, slandered - and if that doesn't work, killed. Either party would sacrifice the long term health of any group in return for a short term boost in ratings just before an election.

One party race baits and has been very clear that they are after white votes. One party has absolutely used race as a weapon against the first African-American president.

We are watching House of Cards right now, 2 episodes from the end.

I think it's a TV show with Kevin Spacey playing a super villain. It's immensely entertaining, but just an entertainment. It's too cartoonishly cynical to be taken as anything else.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Damn good post.

I have to think some more on everything you said and it's getting late. But. . .damn good post.

Thanks man

Nice to see this topic evolving into something good. It's late for me too. I'll jump back in tomorrow some time

[deep]

I am sorry
your last post seemed very reasonable,

I am guilty of not having the patience to read every thing in this thread

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by deep

I am sorry
your last post seemed very reasonable,

I am guilty of not having the patience to read every thing in this thread

I still love you, deep

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

So in other words you both agree.

No.

I fault the GOP for creating various political narratives through which racism -- overt and subtle -- becomes socially acceptable.

It started with the Palin "real Americans" rallies in 2008, and continues.

I also fault the "war on drugs." Nothing has done more to devastate urban black communities.

I also acutely understand how members of a minority feel the need to actually better than their majority counterparts in order to prove their worth to the majority.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I still love you, deep

Wait, let me get the guitar.

Ready. . .on three. .

1, 2, 3 "Kumbaya, my lord (metaphorically for JT' sake ). . . "

[deep]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

We are watching House of Cards right now, 2 episodes from the end.

I think it's a TV show with Kevin Spacey playing a super villain. It's immensely entertaining, but just an entertainment. It's too cartoonishly cynical to be taken as anything else.

I really enjoyed the BBC productions,
I did get a free one year pass to NetFlix and I think I will finally buy a 60 inch LED TV this weekend and activate it

I watch too much TV now, god help me

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

No.

I fault the GOP for creating various political narratives through which racism -- overt and subtle -- becomes socially acceptable.

It started with the Palin "real Americans" rallies in 2008, and continues.

I also fault the "war on drugs." Nothing has done more to devastate urban black communities.

I also acutely understand how members of a minority feel the need to actually better than their majority counterparts in order to prove their worth to the majority.

That was actually aimed more at him than you. . .