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Old 07-23-2013, 02:41 PM   #21
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You know - I'm beginning to wonder if the only reason Nixon opened up relations with China was to break the power that labor had over employers here in the US.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:17 PM   #22
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That is an easy one. No. That thinking was not around in the late 60s early 70s.

The better argument was to look for an opening against the Soviet Union. Nixon had a true passion against the Communist Soviets.
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:04 PM   #23
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I lived in Detroit briefly back in the 90s . Even back then things were in awful condition and there was talk of when the city would finally go bankrupt. I don't know exactly what caused Detroit's downfall, but I do know it's more complicated than simply saying "republicans/democrats ruined it with their policies!". A lot of people are saying a lot of things about Detroit, about how this is where the rest of the country is headed, and other "scary" things. I don't know if I agree with them, but I do know that Seattle would be in huge trouble if the big tech companies like Amazon and Microsoft just up and left.
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:04 PM   #24
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Don't blame Detroit's bankruptcy on the government. Greed and corporate power are a dangerous cocktail that is bringing misfortunes in today's world.
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:08 PM   #25
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Don't blame Detroit's bankruptcy on the government. Greed and corporate power are a dangerous cocktail that is bringing misfortunes in today's world.
Greed & power exist in government as well. Government doesn't get a free pass on this one.
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:51 PM   #26
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Greed & power exist in government as well. Government doesn't get a free pass on this one.
Very true - which is why I don't think communism can succeed any more than capitalism - or feudalism - or hunter & gatheringism ....etc. Over time, those with a heavy dose of greed for wealth and power will work/mold the system to their favor until enough people get angry and rebel - then we start again.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:44 PM   #27
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Very true - which is why I don't think communism can succeed any more than capitalism - or feudalism - or hunter & gatheringism ....etc. Over time, those with a heavy dose of greed for wealth and power will work/mold the system to their favor until enough people get angry and rebel - then we start again.
What has that got to do with communism?

Greed and power in government is not really applicable in regards to this, given the system itself rejects class and a centralised state.
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Old 07-27-2013, 12:23 AM   #28
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What has that got to do with communism?

Greed and power in government is not really applicable in regards to this, given the system itself rejects class and a centralised state.
I respectfully disagree - greed and power always creep in, that's why every human institution eventually crumbles.
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:18 AM   #29
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Hunting-and-gatherism succeeded quite admirably. Was that just tossed into the sentence as an afterthought?

Not that I'd suggest for a second that any of us can or should return to it. But still.
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Old 07-27-2013, 12:44 PM   #30
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Hunting-and-gatherism succeeded quite admirably.
True - and supposedly their diet was much better.
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:37 PM   #31
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Very true - which is why I don't think communism can succeed any more than capitalism - or feudalism - or hunter & gatheringism ....etc. Over time, those with a heavy dose of greed for wealth and power will work/mold the system to their favor until enough people get angry and rebel - then we start again.
Of course feudalism is based on greed and power, it's not something that was corrupted that is just exactly what it was, the more vassals you had the better off in general you were. It was always a way of concentrating capital to the top of society.

Hunter/Gatherer society structure was just something that disappeared (for the most part) with the improvement of agriculture, no one ever rebelled against it.

Communism has never ever really been implemented as Marx saw it, as a system naturally arising from the people rather than a top down implementation (plus whatever was implemented in the USSR and China was never communism).

Capitalism I don't really see much better and I don't agree on what many people see as an inherent link between it and democracy.
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Old 07-27-2013, 10:43 PM   #32
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True - and supposedly their diet was much better.
Well, better than what immediately superceded it in the middle east and Europe. Better than what the most fortunate can enjoy today, probably not that much. Anyway, enough sidetracking from me.

Also, re. someone else's post just prior to this, indeed: there is absolutely no inherent link between 'capitalism' - a certain kind of economic arrangement - and democracy.
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