Unforgettable Fire: A bigger reinvention than Achtung Baby
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Personally, I think AB was a bigger musical reinvention than UF. UF was certainly more synth driven and experimental than War, but I can still hear the familiar U2 signatures like Larry's militaristic drumming style and Edge's chiming guitar.
AB was a more radical transformation. It was a heavier, industrial sound. Much more processed, they utilized technology. Just my 2 cents.
AB was a more radical transformation. It was a heavier, industrial sound. Much more processed, they utilized technology. Just my 2 cents.
I agree about Larry's drum style, but the I think the guitar had definitely undergone a major change. Much more atmospheric than on War.
I think Achtung Baby had a good bit of classic U2 in it, too though. Other than on Zoo Station, The Fly, and maybe Even Better Than the Real Thing, Edge's classic guitar style is still pretty present
I think Achtung Baby had a good bit of classic U2 in it, too though. Other than on Zoo Station, The Fly, and maybe Even Better Than the Real Thing, Edge's classic guitar style is still pretty present
Purplereign
Loungeroom Dancing Queen
. . . interesting arguement 
. . . and I'm going to go away and listen to those 4 albums in this context and get back to you 
but just quickly . . . TUF
. . . and I'm going to go away and listen to those 4 albums in this context and get back to you but just quickly . . . TUF
GirlsAloudFan
Blue Crack Addict
It's an interesting discussion.
Yes, it was a big change between War and The Unforgettable Fire.
You have to first and foremost look at the influence of Eno and Lanois.
Their presence in the creation of the album in question, and in the development of the band as a whole, cannot be understated.
Yes, it was a big change between War and The Unforgettable Fire.
You have to first and foremost look at the influence of Eno and Lanois.
Their presence in the creation of the album in question, and in the development of the band as a whole, cannot be understated.
Yahweh_OMG
New Yorker
JT -----> AB has a much bigger change in sound than War -----> TUF !
TUF has a lot of new stuff, but also some songs that could have been on previous records (Wire, Indian summer sky, Pride). I agree that ASOH, TUF, Bad and Elvis were some new territory, but they seem to be a continuity of what they put out before, some kind of evolution (sometimes big indeed).
However, AB is totally new in terms of music AND attitude. During TUF, the band did not change his attitude toward the media or the audience.....they definitely changed everything with AB. (I know the question is about music....)
I don't see a lot of AB songs that could have made it on JT....almost none. Maybe TTTYAATW or One.... maybe So cruel.... I can't name 1 song for sure that would fit.
On the other side, I can name Wire and Indian Summer sky right away and make any non-fan believing they are from the War album....
TUF has a lot of new stuff, but also some songs that could have been on previous records (Wire, Indian summer sky, Pride). I agree that ASOH, TUF, Bad and Elvis were some new territory, but they seem to be a continuity of what they put out before, some kind of evolution (sometimes big indeed).
However, AB is totally new in terms of music AND attitude. During TUF, the band did not change his attitude toward the media or the audience.....they definitely changed everything with AB. (I know the question is about music....)
I don't see a lot of AB songs that could have made it on JT....almost none. Maybe TTTYAATW or One.... maybe So cruel.... I can't name 1 song for sure that would fit.
On the other side, I can name Wire and Indian Summer sky right away and make any non-fan believing they are from the War album....
theedgeu2
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
This is a really good argument. I still believe AB was the bigger reinvention. While TUF shows the band taking things to a new level sonically, it still doesn't seem as big a departure as what we got with AB. With AB we got the whole new heavier sound, you probably wouldn't believe it was U2 when you first heard it. With TUF you can tell it's U2. It has the reminiscence of the previous three albums but with Lanois's and Eno's atmospheric, ambient touches. Both albums explored new territory in some way, to me AB does this to an extent more. I don't know what the reception of both albums was at their release but if I were around for the War > TUF change and the JT > AB change I'd most likely have been more surprised by the JT > AB switch. Interesting discussion.
partygirl43
Refugee
Well AB and TUF are my 2 favorite U2 albums, precisely because they seem like such leaps of faith musically. And I think that NLOTH is the love child of AB and TUF.
Reggie Thee Dog
Blue Crack Addict
This an excellent topic...While I'm partial to AB being more of a departure if you were a fan during '84-85 TUF was panned as a bit of a failure, and was once listed in a book as one of the 100 worst albums of all time. Even I was disappointed with all atmospherics and textures after being blown away by War. Pride eased me into the album, but a song like ASOH fell flat to me. I can happily say that after 25+ years it is one of my favorite albums and one of the few albums I listen to from start to finish.
However on a global and even more artistic level, the change from JT/R&H to AB...wow...blew me away!! I didn't recognize U2...and I wasn't sure I liked it. I struggled to listen to it...while I love Mysterious Ways, and UTEOTW, I wasn't sure about One, So Cruel, TTYAATW, and Ultraviolet...and I was distracted by the industrial overtones that I didn't realize was a guitar driven album it was. It took me about 3 months to understand exactly was a force this album was...and it is still my favorite U2 album of all time.
However on a global and even more artistic level, the change from JT/R&H to AB...wow...blew me away!! I didn't recognize U2...and I wasn't sure I liked it. I struggled to listen to it...while I love Mysterious Ways, and UTEOTW, I wasn't sure about One, So Cruel, TTYAATW, and Ultraviolet...and I was distracted by the industrial overtones that I didn't realize was a guitar driven album it was. It took me about 3 months to understand exactly was a force this album was...and it is still my favorite U2 album of all time.
This is very close to my thoughts
It's a very, very good discussion, though and great cases can be made for either one.
While most bands have spent their entire careers with one sound, we are lucky to be here discussing which major, well loved U2 album was a bigger reinvention!
Pretty impressive, and we're pretty lucky as fans!
In my opinion, UF was a bigger departure than AB. When it came out, it just sounded SO incredibly different than everything U2 had done up to that point. We didn't really know what to make of it. Impressionistic, abstract, poetic, trippy, stream of consciousness...this was a LONG ways from the jagged guitars of War.
At first, Achtung Baby sounded like a departure of a similar degree, but over time it seemed less and less so to me. And now I'm thinking of a song like "Even Better Than the Real Thing" and how U2 put some hips in their music for the first time, so I'm re-thinking my position.
I don't know. My two favorite U2 albums, for sure. But at the end of the day, I just don't think AB was quite the radical shift that UF was. Tomorrow I'll disagree.
At first, Achtung Baby sounded like a departure of a similar degree, but over time it seemed less and less so to me. And now I'm thinking of a song like "Even Better Than the Real Thing" and how U2 put some hips in their music for the first time, so I'm re-thinking my position.
I don't know. My two favorite U2 albums, for sure. But at the end of the day, I just don't think AB was quite the radical shift that UF was. Tomorrow I'll disagree.
blueeyedgirl
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
The shift to TUF was the greater change. They could have churned out War Part II, III etc with Lillywhite but they did a 180 and chose Eno. I know there were a lot of "WTF"s when that news appeared. And I know the first time I hear TUF I did my own "WTF". Then I listened to it a second time....
By the time AB came out, I think a lot of people were over R&H because of the endless hype in the media. Anything that was different would have been good. I think people were more prepared for U2 to change at that time.
By the time AB came out, I think a lot of people were over R&H because of the endless hype in the media. Anything that was different would have been good. I think people were more prepared for U2 to change at that time.
intedomine
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
They are both massively substantial shifts. I'd say AB over TUF, as I have always, without fail, struggled to compare any of the songs on AB with absolutely anything U2 released pre-90. It's a 100% transformation, for me. Some say God Part II was a sign o' things to come, and I can see why in terms of the themes of the song, but I never think of AB when I'm listening to that particular track.
I envy anyone who was a U2 fan during the shift from R&H to AB. It would have been a staggering thing to experience as it unfolded. Alienating, yet exciting, what it would have felt like to be waiting by the radio to hear the premiere of The Fly.
I suppose, with Wire, Pride and Indian Summer Sky, there's a part of me that can hear in these songs something still unmistakably reminiscent of older U2. It's like I can understand that these are U2 songs, as if the reinvention is not massive enough to mindfuck me in the same way AB quashed all previous perceptions or genre categorisation of U2's music.
That said, on face value, the more deliberate and radical image transformation of U2 from R&H to AB is probably likely to exaggerate the perception that AB was a much more radical musical transition than TUF. It SEEMS like a more resoundingly substantial shift.
I envy anyone who was a U2 fan during the shift from R&H to AB. It would have been a staggering thing to experience as it unfolded. Alienating, yet exciting, what it would have felt like to be waiting by the radio to hear the premiere of The Fly.
I suppose, with Wire, Pride and Indian Summer Sky, there's a part of me that can hear in these songs something still unmistakably reminiscent of older U2. It's like I can understand that these are U2 songs, as if the reinvention is not massive enough to mindfuck me in the same way AB quashed all previous perceptions or genre categorisation of U2's music.
That said, on face value, the more deliberate and radical image transformation of U2 from R&H to AB is probably likely to exaggerate the perception that AB was a much more radical musical transition than TUF. It SEEMS like a more resoundingly substantial shift.
gvox
Ghost of Love
Without giving in to the urge to write a full page dissertation on my favorite era of U2, I think I might still have to go with JT/RnH into AB being a bigger "shift".
To be honest, I feel that War, much as I LOVE the album, has less in common with Boy and October than UF does. I sometimes see UF as more of a natural segue from October than from War - and UF has more of the same type of song that October does, than War.
So what I mean to say is that while War and UF are certainly two very different albums, I hear hints of UF's arrival in some of the sounds on October and to lesser extent Boy. Yes, it was a departure from War, but it's got alot of October written all over it imo (and hell, that's a GOOD thing!)
On the other hand, I'm not sure there's much, if any, warning of what they hit us with on AB on any album before it..
To be honest, I feel that War, much as I LOVE the album, has less in common with Boy and October than UF does. I sometimes see UF as more of a natural segue from October than from War - and UF has more of the same type of song that October does, than War.
So what I mean to say is that while War and UF are certainly two very different albums, I hear hints of UF's arrival in some of the sounds on October and to lesser extent Boy. Yes, it was a departure from War, but it's got alot of October written all over it imo (and hell, that's a GOOD thing!)
On the other hand, I'm not sure there's much, if any, warning of what they hit us with on AB on any album before it..
Good point, GVOX!
Though you could make a good case for God Part II or Hawkmoon on R&H foreshadowing AB. But even with those, the production would've had to have been entirely different for them to fit on AB.
TUF, though a major departure to be sure, was foreshadowed by much of October and some of Boy and War. Tomorrow and Drowning Man they probably could've gotten away with putting on TUF.
Though you could make a good case for God Part II or Hawkmoon on R&H foreshadowing AB. But even with those, the production would've had to have been entirely different for them to fit on AB.
TUF, though a major departure to be sure, was foreshadowed by much of October and some of Boy and War. Tomorrow and Drowning Man they probably could've gotten away with putting on TUF.
ElectricalStorm
War Child
Exactly what I was thinking! While the difference between War and TUF is huge, you can sense the similarity between songs from TUF and earlier songs (e.g. on October, like you said).
With AB, it's like they don't look back at the past and take a complete new start.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
Agreed with Gabe: listen to Scarlet and tell me they didn't have Unforgettable Fire in them. Of course, people claim God Part II telegraphed Achtung Baby to us because it has loud guitars on it, so yeah.
The major difference is the lyrical content. Bono freestyled shit all the time up to TUF. Achtung, on the other hand, is a complete about face in his attitude and perspective, switching out the external for the internal. TUF appears to be more of a superficial change, with Bono abstracting his thoughts and reading a fuckton of Frost.
The major difference is the lyrical content. Bono freestyled shit all the time up to TUF. Achtung, on the other hand, is a complete about face in his attitude and perspective, switching out the external for the internal. TUF appears to be more of a superficial change, with Bono abstracting his thoughts and reading a fuckton of Frost.
Roland of Gilead
Gunslinger
Marien
Refugee
For me The Unforgettable Fire is the beginning of greatness, so powerful, so naive in some ways, so rich in layers and really unexpected after their first 3 albums, it must have been unbelievable for their fans at the time, Achtung Baby (and ZooTV) is all those and much more, it was not only a turning point for the band, it was a turning point for rock, those who lived those times can easily understand how different and how much influential this album was, younger fans usually discover it after having listened to lots of music directly influenced by it and it must be difficult to get the novelty it supposed by then.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Well if we were to group albums by sound alone,
Boy + October + War
TUF + TJT + R&H
Zooropa + Passengers + Pop
ATYCLB + Vertigo + NLOTH
(stuck Passengers in there to make it an even 3
)I think that Achtung Baby was so rattling (no pun intended) because it pretty much occurred around U2's peak, and it was completely new, original material.
That being said, War to TUF was the step from a great band to an epic band, IMO.
Marien
Refugee
I can't see any uniformity in these three, especially NLOTH doesn't have anything to do with the other two, both thematically and from the musical point of view, if we make the exception of Stand Up Comedy.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Make an exception... for Boots and for Magnificent and maybe even Crazy?
NLOTH as an album didn't mesh too well together, IMO. I just included it there because of minor similarities, dont read too much into it. Point I was trying to make was the big shifts.
Really wasn't making any thematic points though.
Marien
Refugee
Ok, then, still I have the feeling NLOTH could have been a starting point for another shift, but as the band seem to have changed their mind it stays on its own in my mind.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Notice:
point was made earlier. War isn't really all that similar to Boy/October. It's got mildly similar stuff, but of the same genre.
R&H applies to TUF and TJT in the same way. In terms of original music on R&H, it's not really like the other two, but it's still the same genre/style of music. And then there's Pop. Really big step away from all 3 of those albums which are all obscure. And then there's NLOTH.
I think NLOTH wasn't a turning point, but if history repeats itself (and it does) it takes U2 about 3 albums for a major shift in musical style, and within each set of albums the third album has variances from the first two.
point was made earlier. War isn't really all that similar to Boy/October. It's got mildly similar stuff, but of the same genre.
R&H applies to TUF and TJT in the same way. In terms of original music on R&H, it's not really like the other two, but it's still the same genre/style of music. And then there's Pop. Really big step away from all 3 of those albums which are all obscure. And then there's NLOTH.
I think NLOTH wasn't a turning point, but if history repeats itself (and it does) it takes U2 about 3 albums for a major shift in musical style, and within each set of albums the third album has variances from the first two.
cobl04
45:33
well the original question was "a bigger reinvention", and JT/R&H > AB is definitely a much bigger reinvention than Boy/October/War > TUF.
i really agree with Lemel, there are hints on their first three albums that foreshadow TUF but AB was a complete 100% turnaround. like they took their first 10 years and put it through the shredder. TUF was a big step forward, AB was something else entirely.
i really agree with Lemel, there are hints on their first three albums that foreshadow TUF but AB was a complete 100% turnaround. like they took their first 10 years and put it through the shredder. TUF was a big step forward, AB was something else entirely.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Yeah, but I still think it amplifies the fact that it was such a turn around because U2 was at their peak. Bands usually dont move too far from the median at that point. The jumped to the other side of the spectrum with Achtung Baby.
I know it was initially about that... conversation
I know it was initially about that... conversation
Y2K
Refugee
I can see the OP's point, but there's still plenty of U2's post-punk sound from their first 3 albums all over The Unforgettable Fire. "Pride", "Wire", and "Indian Summer Sky" could easily fit onto War and don't really seem in line with the ambient direction of the album. Even "The Unforgettable Fire" is pretty similar to their previous post-punk songs, only with atmospheric guitar parts and some synth.
coolian2
Blue Crack Supplier
i can buy into this. post punk into atmospheric with absolutely no warning is a easily a bigger shift than joshua tree to achtung baby. rattle and hum really does provide a small hint as to where they were going with the god part II, even if it was a small hint.
