Why must we show restraint to our enemies.

[Dreadsox]

NBC...

Is there a chance....their lawyers now believe that the supreme court would rule differently on the Geneva conventions....

so to save face,...

Change your policy midsteam without having to lose yet again in court.

 

[BVS]

Um, yes

Let me remind you of the exact quote:

"Why do those Imams and Osama hate the West? What's the cause of their hate? Identify that and work to eliminate it"

What else could that mean except "find out what it is about us that they hate and stop doing it"?

I think what the poster is getting at is what is it that breeds the terrorism?

Is it a combination of fanatical misinterpretation of religion? Is part of it extreme poverty? Is it the constant presence we have in their country and the double standard we hold?

 

[Dreadsox]

AS far as the Geneva Conventions

They must apply to everyone. I have argued in here that they need to be reworked and modernized to cover terrorism. But for now, they must apply. For me, as a soldier, I feel they offer me certain rules and expectations that must be followed for my safety as well as the prisoners.

If they are not, we have given up the moral ground...which I think important for many reasons.

 

[Axver]

I think what the poster is getting at is what is it that breeds the terrorism?

Is it a combination of fanatical misinterpretation of religion? Is part of it extreme poverty? Is it the constant presence we have in their country and the double standard we hold?

Precisely.

As far as Islamic terrorism goes, the majority of Muslims do not support it and do not believe the West needs to be obliterated. So why do a small minority believe they do need to destroy the West and can justify this in the name of Islam? Is the root cause of this poor education? If so, instead of taking military action, let's foster better education for future generations. Do these people believe the West has unjustly wronged them in the past and they have legitimate cause to fight back against who they perceive as an oppressor? If so, then let's not take actions that just confirm their impression of an oppressor (i.e. invasions), but employ mediation and try to reach a peaceful understanding.

Instead of responding to fire with more fire, respond with some water and pacify the situation. If the conditions that breed terrorism are removed, then the problem is solved. But those conditions won't be resolved if we just attack the symptoms.

 

[Dreadsox]

As far as Islamic terrorism goes, the majority of Muslims do not support it and do not believe the West needs to be obliterated.

From this thread, you would think that a majority of Muslims are Arab

 

[Dreadsox]

I am sitting here tonight, wondering how many of you left the stadium for a piss break or beer run during U2's very clear, very pointed slam on people who torture.

 

[Dreadsox]

If Geneva does not apply.....Why doesn't this?

[Q]Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or Imprisonment
Adopted by General Assembly resolution 43/173 of 9 December 1988
Scope of the Body of Principles
These principles apply for the protection of all persons under any form of detention or imprisonment.

Use of Terms

For the purposes of the Body of Principles:

(a) "Arrest" means the act of apprehending a person for the alleged commission of an offence or by the action of an authority;

(b) "Detained person" means any person deprived of personal liberty except as a result of conviction for an offence;

(c) "Imprisoned person" means any person deprived of personal liberty as a result of conviction for an offence;

(d) "Detention" means the condition of detained persons as defined above;

(e) "Imprisonment" means the condition of imprisoned persons as defined above;

(f) The words "a judicial or other authority" means a judicial or other authority under the law whose status and tenure should afford the strongest possible guarantees of competence, impartiality and independence.

Principle 1
All persons under any form of detention or imprisonment shall be treated in a humane manner and with respect for the inherent dignity of the human person.
Principle 2
Arrest, detention or imprisonment shall only be carried out strictly in accordance with the provisions of the law and by competent officials or persons authorized for that purpose.
Principle 3
There shall be no restriction upon or derogation from any of the human rights of persons under any form of detention or imprisonment recognized or existing in any State pursuant to law, conventions, regulations or custom on the pretext that this Body of Principles does not recognize such rights or that it recognizes them to a lesser extent.
Principle 4
Any form of detention or imprisonment and all measures affecting the human rights of a person under any form of detention or imprisonment shall be ordered by, or be subject to the effective control of, a judicial or other authority.
Principle 5
1. These principles shall be applied to all persons within the territory of any given State, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion or religious belief, political or other opinion, national, ethnic or social origin, property, birth or other status.
2. Measures applied under the law and designed solely to protect the rights and special status of women, especially pregnant women and nursing mothers, children and juveniles, aged, sick or handicapped persons shall not be deemed to be discriminatory. The need for, and the application of, such measures shall always be subject to review by a judicial or other authority.

Principle 6
No person under any form of detention or imprisonment shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.* No circumstance whatever may be invoked as a justification for torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Principle 7
1. States should prohibit by law any act contrary to the rights and duties contained in these principles, make any such act subject to appropriate sanctions and conduct impartial investigations upon complaints.
* The term "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" should be interpreted so as to extend the widest possible protection against abuses, whether physical or mental, including the holding of a detained or imprisoned person in conditions which deprive him, temporarily or permanently. of the use of any of his natural senses, such as sight or hearing, or of his awareness of place and the passing of time.

2. Officials who have reason to believe that a violation of this Body of Principles has occurred or is about to occur shall report the matter to their superior authorities and, where necessary, to other appropriate authorities or organs vested with reviewing or remedial powers.

3. Any other person who has ground to believe that a violation of this Body of Principles has occurred or is about to occur shall have the right to report the matter to the superiors of the officials involved as well as to other appropriate authorities or organs vested with reviewing or remedial powers.

Principle 8
Persons in detention shall be subject to treatment appropriate to their unconvicted status. Accordingly, they shall, whenever possible, be kept separate from imprisoned persons.
Principle 9
The authorities which arrest a person, keep him under detention or investigate the case shall exercise only the powers granted to them under the law and the exercise of these powers shall be subject to recourse to a judicial or other authority.
Principle 10
Anyone who is arrested shall be informed at the time of his arrest of the reason for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him.
Principle 11
1. A person shall not be kept in detention without being given an effective opportunity to be heard promptly by a judicial or other authority. A detained person shall have the right to defend himself or to be assisted by counsel as prescribed by law.
2. A detained person and his counsel, if any, shall receive prompt and full communication of any order of detention, together with the reasons therefor.

[/Q]

This Lawyer believes this does apply...http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20020123.html

 

[Irvine511]

Returning to the original post, the conceptual argument that the US must continually turn the other cheek in an effort to win over its enemies with morally upright behavior may be the correct course of action, but is without evidence that this is the most effective course of action, or most appropriate course of action.

where is the evidence that disregarding the agreed upon rules of warfare is the most effective and appropriate course of action?

are things goiong so well in Iraq and in the general GWOT that the new policies set forth by the administration are to be considered effective and appropriate?

if you wish to change the rules, then the burden of proof is upon you to show that the new rules are more appropriate and effective than the ones that American soldiers have abided by for the past 50 years.

 

[Irvine511]

AS far as the Geneva Conventions

They must apply to everyone. I have argued in here that they need to be reworked and modernized to cover terrorism. But for now, they must apply. For me, as a soldier, I feel they offer me certain rules and expectations that must be followed for my safety as well as the prisoners.

If they are not, we have given up the moral ground...which I think important for many reasons.

 

[JMScoopy]

I am sitting here tonight, wondering how many of you left the stadium for a piss break or beer run during U2's very clear, very pointed slam on people who torture.

i guess U2 are an authority on war strategy then.

 

[Dreadsox]

Is it War strategy to torture?

 

[BVS]

i guess U2 are an authority on war strategy then.

Wow you missed that point by a mile, didn't you?

 

[JMScoopy]

Is it War strategy to torture?

no, but torture is a part of war strategy, or could be.

 

[BVS]

no, but torture is a part of war strategy.

Have you ever served?

 

[JMScoopy]

no, my dad did in vietnam and he feels as i do

 

[BVS]

no, my dad did in vietnam and he feels as i do

Well just because he "feels" it is, doesn't mean torture is part of war strategy. There are laws and procedures that speak otherwise.

 

[JMScoopy]

Well just because he "feels" it is, doesn't mean torture is part of war strategy. There are laws and procedures that speak otherwise.

i said it could be a part of war strategy. you've never heard of torture used in war to extract information?

 

[Diemen]

i said it could be a part of war strategy. you've never heard of torture used in war to extract information?

You've never heard of how unreliable information gleaned from torture is?

 

[maycocksean]

JMScoopy, I was curious as to your response to my question of how you would respond to an invading nation using terrorist methods against our people? Would increase or decrease your will to fight?

 

[Dreadsox]

You've never heard of how unreliable information gleaned from torture is?

This is what I find shocking....

There is plenty of evidence that it does not work.

 

[Dreadsox]

no, my dad did in vietnam and he feels as i do

Then your Dad disagrees with Senator McCain.

 

[JMScoopy]

JMScoopy, I was curious as to your response to my question of how you would respond to an invading nation using terrorist methods against our people? Would increase or decrease your will to fight?

thats tough to answer, cause that scenario would never happen. the US is about 100 times the size of iraq and our has the best military by far.

but i'd say if the invasion didnt affect my daily life, i'd probably be apathetic. if i knew if i acted up my family and i would be murdered, i probably wouldnt.

 

[JMScoopy]

i guess U2 are an authority on war strategy then.

i guess war tactics would've been better choice of words

 

[JMScoopy]

double post

 

[Diemen]

So JMS, are you still in favor of torturing our enemy even though information gleaned from torturing has proven to be much less helpful/reliable than information gleaned from building an atmosphere of trust/kindness?

 

[Dreadsox]

So JMS, are you still in favor of torturing our enemy even though information gleaned from torturing has proven to be much less helpful/reliable than information gleaned from building an atmosphere of trust/kindness?

I was thinking....it is not just that it does not work....it causes other resources to be used chasing down false leads.....and that does nothing to help us fight the evil doers.

 

[verte76]

Well just because he "feels" it is, doesn't mean torture is part of war strategy. There are laws and procedures that speak otherwise.

Yeah, who is anyone to put themselves above the law?

 

[maycocksean]

thats tough to answer, cause that scenario would never happen. the US is about 100 times the size of iraq and our has the best military by far.

but i'd say if the invasion didnt affect my daily life, i'd probably be apathetic. if i knew if i acted up my family and i would be murdered, i probably wouldnt.

Fair enough. So suffice it to say that if you'd been living in say Occupied France during World War II you wouldn't have been part of the resistance. You would have cooperated with (or at least not actively opposed) the Nazi occupiers.

Understand, I'm not trying to yank your chain, here. I'm just trying to see if you really believe what you say do.

Here's the thing--the very thing that makes you so horrified, so angry at these terrorists behavior argues that this kind of behavior is not what our country is about. I imagine you'll be quick to say, yeah but the U.S. is not Nazi Germany. And I would say, exactly. We don't want to become like that, and that's why we choose not engage in the same inhuman tactics used by our enemies. Note we did not need to use Nazi tactics to defeat the Nazis.

 

[Justin24]

I have a question. With all the acts we do to each other, Murder, Rape, etc... What gives us Hope that we will change and stop such acts, like beheadings, Tortuing,etc..

 

[BVS]

I have a question. With all the acts we do to each other, Murder, Rape, etc... What gives us Hope that we will change and stop such acts, like beheadings, Tortuing,etc..

We do our best to be human beings and provide a moral model for others.