coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
BonoVoxSupastar said:
What do you mean exactly? (I'm not challenging you, just wanting to know more about where your coming from. I agree with you -- even though you may or may not be taking a jab at me.
)
What if God forgives everyone?
- Thread starter Dreadsox
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
What do you mean exactly? (I'm not challenging you, just wanting to know more about where your coming from. I agree with you -- even though you may or may not be taking a jab at me.
)
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
coemgen said:
What do you mean exactly? (I'm not challenging you, just wanting to know more about where your coming from. I agree with you -- even though you may or may not be taking a jab at me.
No jab.
Just take a look in here. Some posters say if you are Muslim or if you are _____ you will go to hell. Well how many Muslims are Muslim due to where they live or how they grew up? What about those that have never heard of Christ?
Why do so many want to limit God's power? It makes no sense to me.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
A_Wanderer said:
indeed i did.
coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
It doesn't make sense. You're right. I seriously believe though that God works in our hearts and in our lives to point us toward him. First, I believe there's a part of each of us almost built for that relationship with him. Almost like a parent/child relationship. And what you said above -- pisses me off too as a Christian. There are Muslim nations or groups that hide or cover up anything Christian to simply prevent exposure to it. As a Christian, if all of it is true, I believe they'll be judged for that. I also believe God will take into account the circumstances the regular people affected by that are in. On the other hand, I think Christians who don't "spread the word" will be held accountable, too. However, the point is (and I think part of what you're getting at) God doesn't need us to make him famous. (He wants us to for the benefits we receive through it.) He can do that on his own. And I think in many ways he has. I think some of it's taken for granted though.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
coemgen said:
so, let's take an Indian immigrant to the US.
he's a Hindu. has been one his whole life. he understands it, it's as natural to him as breathing. he moves to the US where he is certainly exposed to Christianity. he still prefers his Hindusim. he was raised with it. it's his culture, his language, his worldview. he doesn't convert, not even when Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door. he sees no reason to, and many of the tenets of Christianity don't make sense to him, and he also sees the political manifestations of some stripes of Christianity and is totally turned off. Christ is okay, but his followers? no thank you. on the whole, he respects Christians, but he's a Hindu. born and raised. as strong in his faith as any Christian he knows is in theirs (a difference, though, is that he doesn't push his beliefs on anyone).
is he still fucked when he dies?
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
to most christians yes.
to this christian and God absolutely not.
i will explain later.
dbs
to this christian and God absolutely not.
i will explain later.
dbs
coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Irvine511 said:
I can't answer that question. That's between him and God.
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Which is the better thing:
1. To know Jesus and the life He offers, believe that it's offered to everyone, and believe it so much that you're willing to go to countries where few if any even know of His grace and tell them about it;
2. To know Jesus and the life He offers, believe that it's offered to everyone, but demand that people from countries where few if any even know of His grace come to a Western country to learn about it?
1. To know Jesus and the life He offers, believe that it's offered to everyone, and believe it so much that you're willing to go to countries where few if any even know of His grace and tell them about it;
2. To know Jesus and the life He offers, believe that it's offered to everyone, but demand that people from countries where few if any even know of His grace come to a Western country to learn about it?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
nathan1977 said:
How is that even a question? I'm confused as to what your point is in context with this discussion?
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
People on this board complain about missionaries going to India to witness to the Indians we're all so concerned about -- whether they're simply serving the poor or sharing the good news. (1)
People on this board complain about Christians who sit fat and happy in America and say that it's too bad those Indians don't know Jesus like we do, 'cause they're going to Hell and damned if I'm going to do anything about it. (perception) (2)
Right now we're talking about a whole section of the world being written off by American Christians who say, "Too bad they don't have the relationship with God that we do." But if someone were to say, "I'm going to go to those people so that they have the chance of a relationship with God that I do," you'd be tarred and feathered here.
It's a little of damned if you do, damned if you don't, it seems...
People on this board complain about Christians who sit fat and happy in America and say that it's too bad those Indians don't know Jesus like we do, 'cause they're going to Hell and damned if I'm going to do anything about it. (perception) (2)
Right now we're talking about a whole section of the world being written off by American Christians who say, "Too bad they don't have the relationship with God that we do." But if someone were to say, "I'm going to go to those people so that they have the chance of a relationship with God that I do," you'd be tarred and feathered here.
It's a little of damned if you do, damned if you don't, it seems...
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
nathan1977 said:
Not really sure what this has to do with the context of this discussion, but I'm all for Christians who want to do mission work! More power to them.
But it does seem odd that people claim God is all powerful, yet they limit his power by geography.
As Coemgen points out, no human is perfect, yet God is going to count on them to reach those hard to reach places? That's a lot of damned people.
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I believe God HAS forgiven everyone.
I believe everyone has a place in heaven.
However, I don't believe God will force people into heaven who don't want to go. We always assume everybody wants to go to heaven, but says who?
Another perspective on "No one comes to the father except through me": "Anyone who comes to the Father is coming through me, whether they know it or not." If you're choosing life, if your choosing truth as much as you can understand it, then you're choosing Christ. Just because there's only one lifeguard in the water doesn't mean that you have to know his name for him to save you from drowning.
I believe everyone has a place in heaven.
However, I don't believe God will force people into heaven who don't want to go. We always assume everybody wants to go to heaven, but says who?
Another perspective on "No one comes to the father except through me": "Anyone who comes to the Father is coming through me, whether they know it or not." If you're choosing life, if your choosing truth as much as you can understand it, then you're choosing Christ. Just because there's only one lifeguard in the water doesn't mean that you have to know his name for him to save you from drowning.
[Q]Another perspective on "No one comes to the father except through me": "Anyone who comes to the Father is coming through me, whether they know it or not." If you're choosing life, if your choosing truth as much as you can understand it, then you're choosing Christ. Just because there's only one lifeguard in the water doesn't mean that you have to know his name for him to save you from drowning.[/Q]
This may be the absolute BEST interpretation I have heard of this verse. It may sound silly, but I have not seen it interpreted like this.
I love it!
This may be the absolute BEST interpretation I have heard of this verse. It may sound silly, but I have not seen it interpreted like this.
I love it!
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
maycocksean said:
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
Most Christain faiths teach that you have to accept Christ in this life to be "saved".
Moreover, all mankind have to accept Christ and confess he is the Son of God to have eternal life. The scriptures are repleat with this and it's usually brought up by those prosletysing.
I have a problem with this concept, here's why:
Doing the math, roughly 6 billion people have lived on the earth since it's creation, and roughly less than I billion have heard of Christ let alone accept Him, what happens to the other 5 billion?
5 BILLION.
Did God being our Creator love some more than others?
Did God not love those his children in Red China, N. Korea, India, Sudan, Iran, Iraq etc as much as those of Christian nations?
Are 5 BILLION of God's children up the creek without a paddle?
Remember it's the so called Christians that have painted the Non Christians out of the picture if they don't accept Christ in this life.
Are they damned?
What gives here people?
dbs
Moreover, all mankind have to accept Christ and confess he is the Son of God to have eternal life. The scriptures are repleat with this and it's usually brought up by those prosletysing.
I have a problem with this concept, here's why:
Doing the math, roughly 6 billion people have lived on the earth since it's creation, and roughly less than I billion have heard of Christ let alone accept Him, what happens to the other 5 billion?
5 BILLION.
Did God being our Creator love some more than others?
Did God not love those his children in Red China, N. Korea, India, Sudan, Iran, Iraq etc as much as those of Christian nations?
Are 5 BILLION of God's children up the creek without a paddle?
Remember it's the so called Christians that have painted the Non Christians out of the picture if they don't accept Christ in this life.
Are they damned?
What gives here people?
dbs
Last edited:
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
diamond said:
Uh....no.
6 billion people on the earth NOW.
Someone else can tabulate how many people have lived all-time.
Non-Christians, 4 billion NOW
Yes, 4 billion NOW, plus all the other souls who didn't get Jesus'd up in the last 2,000 years. All the others before then.......So many billions it's absurd..........
It's so incredibly ridiculous it defies logic.
Leave logic out of of the window when talking about these things.
How many people will burn in hell?
Anywhere between 60%-80% of everyone who ever lived?? Maybe higher. Minimum 4 billion humans, surely much much more. Select company for sure.
Hilarious.
It's incredible really. How many of you folks will own up to the numbers? Whatever the numbers of yore, today it's about 2/3.
67% of the Earth's population doesn't buy the myth that you buy.
They go to hell. Will you own and accept those numbers?
Our commonalities and strengths will never be found in dogma.
Ever.
Last edited:
Liesje
Blue Crack Addict
diamond said:
General Revelation, my friend
Yes, God forgives EVERYONE and yes, EVERYONE can be saved, even if they were born in a mud hut in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and we aren't even aware they exist.
Liesje
Blue Crack Addict
maycocksean said:
I love you
I'm going to save this on a notecard....
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Liesje said:
I love you
I'm going to save this on a notecard....
:blush: Awww, thanks!
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
U2DMfan said:
I'm getting a little confused here. . .who exactly are we are arguing against in this thread? We keep referring to those posters who insist that most of the world will burn in hell. . .but who ARE they? These are the ones who are supposed to be "owning up the numbers" and all that. But I'm having trouble identifying anyone who has actually made such radical statements in this thread.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
I was referring to the so called "Christian" belief in general espoused by many in the world.
I happen to think you and Liesje partailly correct and
are on the right track.
More later.
dbs
I happen to think you and Liesje partailly correct and
are on the right track.
More later.
dbs
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
nathan1977 said:
you would.
why don't you just plant a Union Jack in the ground and claim the land for the Queen while you're at it?
what we're getting at is a lack of respect for other faiths and the lack of self-awareness -- perhaps there are people out there who are every bit as strong in their religion as you are, and for perfectly valid reasons, they view your religion as invalid as you view theirs.
just who are you to tell them otherwise? where do you derive your authority to wag your finger and tell them that, silly Hindus, you're all damned to hell?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
maycocksean said:
To be fair, they do exist in here, quite a few to be exact. Some may disguise it better than others but they are in here...
coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Dreadsox said:
It's not man made though. Christ said it himself -- "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the father but by me." Look, God is going to be fair and just. Non of us Christians can claim we know the fait of anyone. That's between God and them. He knows their heart. He's also seeking us all. He wants a relationship with us. That's why he sent his son to do our dirty work in the first place.
Last edited:
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
coemgen said:
And this is exactly why we should be careful of making statements such as this:
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
Dreadsox said:
No.
Dread and Irvine are on the right track.
bayou12780
War Child
Here is the best explanation of the topic I have ever found. From the book: Reading the Bible for the First Time, by Marcus Borg – excerpt from pages 215-217. His other book, Meeting Jesus for the First Time, is also good. Sorry for long post.
=======
Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me.”
The last text we shall explore is also from John. It is troubling to many mainline Christians in our time because of how it has commonly been heard and read through the Christian centuries: it has been the classic “proof text” for Christian exclusivism – the notion that salvation is possible only through Jesus, and thus only through Christianity.
Intrinsic Metaphorical Meanings: Although this text, like the others we have looked at, has specific historical relevance, it also has universal meanings. We gain access to those meanings by paying attention to the metaphor at the heart of the text: Jesus is “the way.” A way is a path or a road or a journey, not a set of beliefs.
So Jesus is “the way.” But what does this metaphor, applied to a person, mean? More specifically, what is Jesus’ “way” in John’s gospel (or what is “the way” which Jesus is)? The answer is found in the movement or dynamic of the gospel as a whole as well as in a single verse:
In the gospel as a whole: From the inaugural scene onward, Jesus’ way leads to his death – which is also, for John, his glorification. The way to life in the presence of God is through death.
In a single verse: The Jesus of John says, “Very truly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.”
In short, for John the way or path of Jesus is the path of death and resurrection understood as a metaphor for the religious life. That way – the path of dying to an old way of being and being born into a new way of being – is the only way to God.
The same point is made in a story I once heard about a sermon preached by a Hindu professor in a Christian seminary several decades ago. The text for the day included the “one way” passage, and about it he said, “This verse is absolutely true – Jesus is the only way.” But he went on to say, “And that way – of dying to an old way of being and being born into a new way of being – is known in all of the religions of the world.” The way of Jesus is a universal way, known to millions who have never heard of Jesus.
The way of Jesus is thus not a set of beliefs about Jesus. That we ever thought it was is strange, when one thinks about it – as if one entered new life by believing certain things to be true, or as if the only people who can be saved are those who know the word “Jesus.” Thinking that way virtually amounts to salvation by syllables. Rather, the way of Jesus is the way of death and resurrection – the path of transition and transformation from an old way of being to a new way of being.
=====
=======
Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me.”
The last text we shall explore is also from John. It is troubling to many mainline Christians in our time because of how it has commonly been heard and read through the Christian centuries: it has been the classic “proof text” for Christian exclusivism – the notion that salvation is possible only through Jesus, and thus only through Christianity.
Intrinsic Metaphorical Meanings: Although this text, like the others we have looked at, has specific historical relevance, it also has universal meanings. We gain access to those meanings by paying attention to the metaphor at the heart of the text: Jesus is “the way.” A way is a path or a road or a journey, not a set of beliefs.
So Jesus is “the way.” But what does this metaphor, applied to a person, mean? More specifically, what is Jesus’ “way” in John’s gospel (or what is “the way” which Jesus is)? The answer is found in the movement or dynamic of the gospel as a whole as well as in a single verse:
In the gospel as a whole: From the inaugural scene onward, Jesus’ way leads to his death – which is also, for John, his glorification. The way to life in the presence of God is through death.
In a single verse: The Jesus of John says, “Very truly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.”
In short, for John the way or path of Jesus is the path of death and resurrection understood as a metaphor for the religious life. That way – the path of dying to an old way of being and being born into a new way of being – is the only way to God.
The same point is made in a story I once heard about a sermon preached by a Hindu professor in a Christian seminary several decades ago. The text for the day included the “one way” passage, and about it he said, “This verse is absolutely true – Jesus is the only way.” But he went on to say, “And that way – of dying to an old way of being and being born into a new way of being – is known in all of the religions of the world.” The way of Jesus is a universal way, known to millions who have never heard of Jesus.
The way of Jesus is thus not a set of beliefs about Jesus. That we ever thought it was is strange, when one thinks about it – as if one entered new life by believing certain things to be true, or as if the only people who can be saved are those who know the word “Jesus.” Thinking that way virtually amounts to salvation by syllables. Rather, the way of Jesus is the way of death and resurrection – the path of transition and transformation from an old way of being to a new way of being.
=====
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
coemgen said:
but Christ didn't say that.
you're taking an English translation of very, very old books written by True Believers years and years after his death.
how can you put so much literalist faith into a set of words of dubious veracity?
what is so threatening about a faith that sees the message of Jesus (or Muhammad) as a broad indicator of how we should treat others, of what the divine might be, and not as a literally "true" account that includes an elaborate theology that explains everything?
