Upperthong, West Yorkshire Superthread

[Axver]

It all about responsibility. No one chooses to be a leader of something great than themselves. Like I said it just lands in your lap. Many simply don't take on the responsibility, many don't have their voices heard but they are out there. You have to breath life into the idea of revolution in the minds of young people. The real heroes never wanted to be heroes, they just accepted the responsibility.

To be perfectly honest with you, this just sounds like fluffy idealistic motivational talk to me. I'd say that more to the point, those who stand up and try to make their voice heard are not listened to. People will give intellectual consent to an idea, but are too apathetic and disillusioned to do anything more because they don't see a reward for their commitment, i.e. the realisation, even partial, of their goals.

 

[Screwtape2]

And now the next question (probably the most saddening of all): what will it take to get these people to just say "fuck it" and take it on regardless of their reservations? Hopefully it's nothing irreparable.

Honestly...they need to know they aren't alone. They need see revolution work again. Simply put, they need another revolution.

 

[Axver]

We don't see nearly anyone active, let alone Greenpeace. But whenever we're looking for an example of a group who seem to run around like a headless chicken, we turn to Greenpeace.

It's like when they tried to stop a coal shipment leaving Lyttleton earlier this year - it came up in one of our classes (PR, as it happens!) and it turned into a "we're sick of their shit" agreement.

Perhaps when you hear the same voice doing the same thing for so long - especially as you grow up and learn the system - you recognise the groups are often full of idiots who have goals but no realistic way to go about them.

Yeah, they go after all the wrong things. I think what people want is a detailed, clear plan of attack that actually has a reasonable chance of success. And within our political system, how do you get success? Either by getting into parliament (ha) or influencing the governing party's policies and policymakers (damn hard). Greenpeace waving placards and tying themselves to ships will do sweet fuck-all.

I don't think people see marching in the streets as having any realistic chance of success. The more the masses pull out of it, the more it gets the perception of being an activity of the loony fringe and the less likely the masses are to even support it, let alone become involved again.

 

[LemonMelon]

To be perfectly honest with you, this just sounds like fluffy idealistic motivational talk to me. I'd say that more to the point, those who stand up and try to make their voice heard are not listened to. People will give intellectual consent to an idea, but are too apathetic and disillusioned to do anything more because they don't see a reward for their commitment, i.e. the realisation, even partial, of their goals.

And, also, where do these "heroes" come from anyway? Can anyone honestly expect a jaded politician or statesman to pick up a cause with no strings attached? On the other side, who would bother with some man no one has heard of who simply has an opinion? It's pretty dire when you look at it that way.

 

[Axver]

Honestly...they need to know they aren't alone. They need see revolution work again. Simply put, they need another revolution.

What exactly do you mean by "revolution"?

I should lay my cards on the table here by stating that I think the revolutionary left, as traditionally understood, is an embarrassment to the entire left wing.

 

[coolian2]

Yeah, they go after all the wrong things. I think what people want is a detailed, clear plan of attack that actually has a reasonable chance of success. And within our political system, how do you get success? Either by getting into parliament (ha) or influencing the governing party's policies and policymakers (damn hard). Greenpeace waving placards and tying themselves to ships will do sweet fuck-all.

I don't think people see marching in the streets as having any realistic chance of success. The more the masses pull out of it, the more it gets the perception of being an activity of the loony fringe and the less likely the masses are to even support it, let alone become involved again.

I was going to say what you said in the first paragraph but i thought someone would pick up on it. Now to be supported by the masses you need to have your shit together. So together you may as well just get it done by a political party or get into parliament (ha).

 

[Screwtape2]

To be perfectly honest with you, this just sounds like fluffy idealistic motivational talk to me. I'd say that more to the point, those who stand up and try to make their voice heard are not listened to. People will give intellectual consent to an idea, but are too apathetic and disillusioned to do anything more because they don't see a reward for their commitment, i.e. the realisation, even partial, of their goals.

You're wrong Axver. I see the good in people. People in America are willing to listen. A revolution is coming. Maybe not now but in a few years, a few decades. This generation sees and asks "this is what you've left us?" They are starting to work for their children and their children. I see the good in people. The future is now. A great dream is starting to be born.

 

[Axver]

I was going to say what you said in the first paragraph but i thought someone would pick up on it. Now to be supported by the masses you need to have your shit together. So together you may as well just get it done by a political party or get into parliament (ha).

I'm having a damn hard time right now trying to think of any change "from below" (i.e. from the extra-institutional masses) that has succeeded in a Western liberal democracy in the last few decades. The most notable changes I can think of have all been initiated by political elites and their intellectual advisors. Look at the rise of neoliberal economics in the 1970s and Reaganomics/Rogernomics/Thatcherism in the 1980s; does anybody seriously think the man in the street thought up that huge political shift? Hell no, that was politicians and policymakers at the core of the system making changes. A bunch of students rallying made no tangible difference.

 

[Screwtape2]

What exactly do you mean by "revolution"?

I should lay my cards on the table here by stating that I think the revolutionary left, as traditionally understood, is an embarrassment to the entire left wing.

A new involvement, a new energy, a new dream and the beginning of a new change to the system, to the society.

 

[Axver]

You're wrong Axver. I see the good in people. People in America are willing to listen. A revolution is coming. Maybe not now but in a few years, a few decades. This generation sees and asks "this is what you've left us?" They are starting to work for their children and their children. I see the good in people. The future is now. A great dream is starting to be born.

I'd like to think you're right, but three years of studying PolSci has left me so convinced that the system is increasingly fucked and we're increasingly incapable of doing anything about it that I'm ditching PolSci and sticking with History.

We need radical change. We need it yesterday. But the system is so firmly established that it cannot be changed. It gives people what they want in the immediate short term; there will never be revolutionary fervour as long as people have a roof over their heads, food on the table, and some diversionary entertainment to fill their evening.

What I think we need are huge policy shifts. Environmental conservation, sustainable infrastructure, public transport promotion, privileging healthcare and education over big business rather than the other way around. It won't happen. Crucially, the first state to take such steps is inherently vulnerable - I won't go all theoretical here, except to say that it's reminiscient of the security dilemma that underpinned much foreign policy in the Cold War. Nobody wants to fuck themselves over and let somebody else profit at their expense.

 

[Screwtape2]

A bunch of students rallying made no tangible difference.

They made a thing right and a thing wrong. They set up an ethic. They saw the human condition and deemed things wrong or right. That is a tangible difference because it sets up a justice.

 

[Axver]

A new involvement, a new energy, a new dream and the beginning of a new change to the system, to the society.

No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

Tell me what you think should be done and how it will be realised.

 

[Axver]

By the way, I love this thread.

What we've got going right now is what FYM should be.

 

[coolian2]

By the way, I love this thread.

What we've got going right now is what FYM should be.

Can't argue. It helps we have a few jaded FYM members around. Although oddly enough, i'm not one of them.

 

[coolian2]

No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

I want to agree with this without simply quoting and saying i agree. But efforts to do otherwise would be redundant. So i agree.

 

[LemonMelon]

By the way, I love this thread.

What we've got going right now is what FYM should be.

Hahaha definitely.


Problem is, I don't think there's all that much to discuss at this point concerning this issue. We all want what Screwtape wants, but the problem is that it has not yet, nor may it ever, become a reality. People are lazy. Being an activist or, better yet, an extroverted idealist (I'm very proud of the subtle distinction I just made there ) is extremely difficult and not everyone will agree with what you're supporting. Part of me understands and follows suit; the other part is talking from a soapbox right now.

 

[Screwtape2]

I'd like to think you're right, but three years of studying PolSci has left me so convinced that the system is increasingly fucked and we're increasingly incapable of doing anything about it that I'm ditching PolSci and sticking with History.

We need radical change. We need it yesterday. But the system is so firmly established that it cannot be changed. It gives people what they want in the immediate short term; there will never be revolutionary fervour as long as people have a roof over their heads, food on the table, and some diversionary entertainment to fill their evening.

What I think we need are huge policy shifts. Environmental conservation, sustainable infrastructure, public transport promotion, privileging healthcare and education over big business rather than the other way around. It won't happen. Crucially, the first state to take such steps is inherently vulnerable - I won't go all theoretical here, except to say that it's reminiscient of the security dilemma that underpinned much foreign policy in the Cold War. Nobody wants to fuck themselves over and let somebody else profit at their expense.

Axver, the system will always fall prey to the human condition. People demand a voice all across the world. Never will revolution be dead. People will fight the system in their own way. Some will join together in that fight. Eventually there will be a change. The revolution will be alive as long as there is immortality. When know what we do will go on and on and on. We will never stop dreaming.

 

[Axver]

They made a thing right and a thing wrong. They set up an ethic. They saw the human condition and deemed things wrong or right. That is a tangible difference because it sets up a justice.

Again, sounds nice, but I don't know what you mean.

Reaganomics happened. Rogernomics happened. Thatcherism happened. Neoliberal economics now defines the international system; the International Monetary Fund demands often completely inappropriate politico-economic restructuring in impoverished countries as a condition for loans. Economic neoliberalism is hegemonic. A bunch of students rallying did absolutely squat.

Neoliberalism will only lose its hegemony when it has a crisis of legitimacy. "A-ha!" you say. "Nuh-uh" I reply. What destroyed the Keynesian consensus and gave rise to neoliberalism? It sure as hell wasn't student organisation. It wasn't the Generation of 1968. It took place at the highest levels of the global economy - see the 1973 Oil Shock. Economists and politicians at the system's centre made the calls. Systematic changes will be motivated by economic pressures, not by a bunch of students with fantastic, bright ideas.

(Disclaimer: I am worried how this post will come across with regards to my stance on the issues described. I am, for the record, firmly opposed to economic neoliberalism.)

 

[LemonMelon]

No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

And this supports your point perfectly...too many do this, and nothing ever comes of it.

 

[Screwtape2]

No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

Tell me what you think should be done and how it will be realised.

The revolution is a dream-given will that is eternal.

A dream will come to someone and they will rise up. They will give this will a voice and a people. That is the revolution. It pushes out as a dream through every atom and mind. It lives forever in the ever expanding universe. All you need is to dream it up.

 

[bono_212]

I always seem to walk in on politics

 

[coolian2]

The revolution is a dream-given will that is eternal.

A dream will come to someone and they will rise up. They will give this will a voice and a people. That is the revolution. It pushes out as a dream through every atom and mind. It lives forever in the ever expanding universe. All you need is to dream it up.

If nothing else, you'll make a hell of a writer.

 

[coolian2]

I always seem to walk in on politics

It might be the bat signal for you

 

[Screwtape2]

Again, sounds nice, but I don't know what you mean.

Reaganomics happened. Rogernomics happened. Thatcherism happened. Neoliberal economics now defines the international system; the International Monetary Fund demands often completely inappropriate politico-economic restructuring in impoverished countries as a condition for loans. Economic neoliberalism is hegemonic. A bunch of students rallying did absolutely squat.

Neoliberalism will only lose its hegemony when it has a crisis of legitimacy. "A-ha!" you say. "Nuh-uh" I reply. What destroyed the Keynesian consensus and gave rise to neoliberalism? It sure as hell wasn't student organisation. It wasn't the Generation of 1968. It took place at the highest levels of the global economy - see the 1973 Oil Shock. Economists and politicians at the system's centre made the calls. Systematic changes will be motivated by economic pressures, not by a bunch of students with fantastic, bright ideas.

(Disclaimer: I am worried how this post will come across with regards to my stance on the issues described. I am, for the record, firmly opposed to economic neoliberalism.)

They showed a thing was wrong. They carried out a justice. Squat? They showed the power of will by making sure a wrong did not pass as a right. Can't you see the importance of that?

 

[bono_212]

It might be the bat signal for you

Nananananana batman

 

[Axver]

I hesitate to do this, but ...

The revolution is a dream-given will that is eternal.

A dream will come to someone and they will rise up. They will give this will a voice and a people. That is the revolution. It pushes out as a dream through every atom and mind. It lives forever in the ever expanding universe. All you need is to dream it up.

No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

Tell me what you think should be done and how it will be realised.

We don't want dreamers. We want people who get results.

 

[Axver]

They showed a thing was wrong. They carried out a justice. Squat? They showed the power of will by making sure a wrong did not pass as a right. Can't you see the importance of that?

All they did was showed that some people disagreed. Did those in power care? No. Did those in power make any changes? No. Did the protest movements achieve any tangible results? No. They exercised their free speech and that was it. Economic neoliberalism is a defining characteristic of the present day international order. At the end of the day, to the protest movements, all I have to say is "so what?" Sure, I agree that it's wrong. Standing in the street yelling about it isn't going to right the wrong. Go do something productive.

 

[Axver]

If nothing else, you'll make a hell of a writer.

Seconded.

I just had this funny thought of Screwtape in one of those 1880s Russian communist or anarchist groups, drafting their manifestos with all kinds of wonderful sounding rhetoric.

Honestly, if I believed a movement had a chance of success, I could see myself in a similar role. Right now, on a lot of issues, I can tell you what should be done and how this should be accomplished. But how to get into a position to execute this plan - I have no fucking clue.

 

[Screwtape2]

I hesitate to do this, but ...



No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

Tell me what you think should be done and how it will be realised.

We don't want dreamers. We want people who get results.

These are not vague terms. A revolution is a dream-given will. I can't explain it any better than that. I just told you the plan and how it will be realized. The world is shaped by dreamers. You have to have faith in them.

 

[LemonMelon]

For the record, I agree with Axver on most every issue here, but I'm too preoccupied at the moment to be articulate. Hey, just like everyone else in my generation that I've looked down on tonight.