U2 touching up "live" releases in the studio

[typhoon]

During the "oh's" part, Bono says "going out to the NBA" and then throws a basketball into the crowd.

Yeah, worst line in a U2 show ever (yes, I know it was broadcast during some halftime show, it still sucks). He should've added, "Brought to you by McDonald's. I'm lovin' it!" to "With or Without You" while he was at it.

 

[whasjoewahn]

Also Streets on the Slane DVD... Bono is all over the place... Did they also used the first night??

 

[GG_The_Fly]

Uh, no, this is not knowledge amongst hardcore fans only because it's simply NOT true. There's a whole world of difference between a sequencer or pre-recorded track and some bloke standing under the stage, playing extra guitar. U2 use sequencers and pre-recorded tracks. There's no fifth band member backstage playing anything, though.

Axver's comments have been addressed but i will add: U2 definitely has a FIFTH member playing back/under the stage - one only needs to find the Grammy award's sound check page somewhere on this site (posted on 2/12 under news with the headline "Source: U2 to Play 'Sometimes' at the Grammy Awards - Interference.com*") and there was Terry Lawless listed as add'l band - off stage - keyboards.

It's totally deceptive to watch edge play the keyboards on New Year's Day and think that whenever there's a keyboard part, he's playing or it's a backing track. But you CANNOT effectively use a prerecorded keyboard track - you need somebody that can adjust so bono can ad lib while he's up there. If you watch the BONO CAM on Elevation Boston, you can hear the keyboards clear as day on Elevation. U2 definitely have people behind the scenes playing - e.g., terry lawless. . .

 

[GG_The_Fly]

Here it is, reposted:

 

[Cask]

Also during bad on the bootleg from boston, you can hear bono singing snippets from the stones´ wild horses, right before going into 40, but on the dvd, wild horses is removed. However, they didn´t touch the fly on the dvd, it sounds exactly the same on the bootleg, except with less quality.

 

[broken toy]

Here's a thought: who gives a rip?

Damn near every artist in the history of popular and rock music has fixed live releases to some extent.

Even bands who have churned out loads of "warts and all" releases (primarily marketed to hardcore fans), like the Grateful Dead and Pearl Jam, have other more "mainstream" live releases that feature editing.

As a hard-core fan, I've got no beef whatsoever with U2 for "fixing" bum notes or whatever for a live release. If I want the foulups, I've got legions of audience and soundboard recordings. I actually appreciate having a clean live production to listen to once in awhile. The copyright omissions are unfortunate, but understandable.

I got over problems with backing tracks long ago, and actually I'm just fine with other people playing along live. Better than too many backing tracks, in my mind. U2 is really a set four-piece that has gradually written more complex music. Until they can clone Edge, they're going to have face a choice of not playing a lot of songs, or using other musicians or backing tracks. And I don't really want to see a fleet of musicians and backup singers out there. If it's the difference between me hearing full-band, fleshed-out versions of Sometimes and Original, then give me the extra blokes under the stage.

Folks, don't be fooled by cynical muck-rakers and would-be whistleblowers. There's nothing unique or dastardly about U2's approach to playing live, or releasing live music.

 

[Ellay]

WOWY was shocking on the Popheart EP, that was a terrible edit, especially of the bass.....and why that particular performance...the end of the song was totally cut off, it's crap.

Ive just posted exactly the same thing on another thread,

what the hell was all that about.

was it just to appease non u2 fans who'd look at the single and think ,,, oh I've heard of that one., and then buy it?

 

[Axver]

Here it is, reposted:

Wasn't it established that that was something unusual that has not been done during any other performances of Sometimes (i.e. Brooklyn Bridge, Radio 1)? Might explain all of the complaints about the guitar being drowned out, actually.

Anyway, I'm yet to see anyone offer conclusive proof that additional musicians play along with the band. Guitar techs tune guitars, and synths and pre-recorded backing tracks are triggered, but that's not the same as someone in the shadows playing a pivotal role in the song, the same kind of role as the four onstage, and not being credited for it.

 

[stagman]

The Fly From Boston just does'nt have the raw guitar sound as it did earlier in the tour...the first part of the song anyway...the solo is alright.

 

[GG_The_Fly]

Axver- I know it's not something you want to believe but that Terry Lawless guy was in the 'pit' for every Elevation show - indeed, that tour featured an off stage keyboard for every show. Just think about it: I mean, they wouldn't try something NEW for the grammy awards - they wouldn't just be trying out some new musician for the first time, they would definitely be going with a formula they'd use before. Sure, there are prerecorded tracks - for BD's weird intro sounds, for example, but for a discrete piano part - which that tour had - there was an extra musician down below.

I don't have a problem with extra musicians, per se, i just think it's deceptive to hide them under the stage.

 

[CTU2fan]

I don't mind the extra musician; I'd rather they not hide them, but oh well...but the editing of supposed "live" recordings is crap IMO. Thank God for bootlegs.

 

[U2utah2U]

Okay, so there are two topics going around right now. I don't really care about cleaning up mess-ups for an official release. I mean, The Beatles did it to some extent with the roof top performance, maybe not to the extreme of U2 on some live performances but this seems to be a common practice.

However, I am very interested in "evidence" that there are backup musicians playing live and not simply overseeing the samplers, sequencers or pushing the occasional foot pedal while Edge is dancing on the catwalk. (I know I've read that Dallas works the wah pedal for the solo of UTEOTW.)

I tend to believe that Terry Lawless is a backup keyboard player. The Grammy list that was posted shows he's involved in some way but is he playing live or overseeing the sequencers? And whoever posted that is right, U2 would not be trying something new at the Grammys. But I'm not sure Schoo is jamming away with the band. And yes I believe that on many songs U2 IS playing to a rigid click track with backing tracks. Granted, there is somebody "minding the store" below stage in case Bono wants to break from format but even the "improvisations" are so rehearsed and planned out. Anybody that has ever seen any large budget production knows that there are very few surprises. Even Bono said the trick is to make it look spontaneous. Case in point, Bono hugging the American flag--I dare say it was done in every US venue on the Elevation tour yet every audience felt like they were part of something intimate. Did it make it any less special? Of course not. This only shows that U2 puts a lot of thought and preparation into every note that is played and whatever improvisation is done within that framework.

If U2 has multiple musicians I don't understand why they don't put them on stage with them. When the Smashing Pumpkins started writing more complex stuff they brought a touring keyboard player--no big deal. Most bands do this.

I was actually surprised to see backup singers and a 2nd guitar player on the 9/11 special. What's that guy's name? Dave Stewart from the Eurythmics? Is that right or am I making stuff up?

I can see why U2 wants to maintain their image as a four piece, but REM used to be opposed to adding backup musicians until the Moster tour. I thought it was great when they added two extra guitar players. I realize the format is different now--the 3 with session musicians--but I remember it was kind of big deal for REM to add backup musicians on that 95/96 tour.

Also, No Doubt has used the same two guys for several tours and they are an integral part of the live show (and even in the studio at times) but they don't take away from the fact that No Doubt is a four member band.

Any way, I guess that I'm okay with U2 if they have an army of Edges below deck but I highly doubt they do. There may be the occasional song where Dallas or Terry lend their talents but I'm guessing they are fufilling their job more as technicians and not session musicians. Plus, if there are live keyboards, how come we haven't ever heard mistakes? Huh? There would have to be if the human element were involved. And as good as Dallas is, he'd make the occasional mistake as well.

I'd love to see more hard evidence before I make a definitive opinion.

--nice thread.

 

[Chrisedge]

It doesn't matter if they are playing keyboard, or triggering a sequencer. The result is the same. They are an extra musician, and they should be on stage with the band. If it's only for a few songs, fine. If it's for the whole show, fine. Don't cheat and hide them under the stage like Britney Spears would.

 

[gareth brown]

Eh...ever thought they could be technicians?

Not really, no -- not with the guitar player playing the guitar and the keyboard player standing over the keyboard.

HA HA HA HA! BEST thing I have read all day, bizarrely...!

Anyway, yeah it's pretty obvious they have extra guitarists/keyboard players every now and again...come on, stop fooling yourselves, it's just a fact. I guess they just don't like sharing the stage? I remember reading an NME article from the Lovetown Era, which said Bono did his usual "wanna play my guitar?" bit in Japan...guy gets on stage, knocks out a solo worthy of a "kleenex reception" to coin a phrase , Bono doesn't mention his name to the crowd, bullshits about not attempting to pronounce a Japanese name and doesn't offer anyone his guitar for nights after...!!

 

[gareth brown]

Ps.

Top Right - Additional Musicians.

 

[BVS]

Hey, BVS do you care? Nope, I don't give a shit.

Is the music fake? No.

 

[Phalanx]

Actually, I am pretty sure there are at least 2 musicians in the "underground" playing instruments. Not all the time, but for certain songs....and I believe they're a guitarist and a synth player.

In fact, a while ago I stumbled on a site for some guy who was the synth player during the Elevation tour....mentioned something about playing the keyboards for Where the Streets Have No Name.

 

[U2utah2U]

Okay, I'm not disregarding the possibility of a backup keyboard player tucked away under the stage but live is live and ANY musician will eventually make a mistake, especially if they're playing the same thing night after night. My question is, if there are backup musicians, how come we don't have any examples of their mistakes?

The human element in any live performance simply creates the occasional mistake. I just don't hear it on any boots I have. If anybody has any example of a flubbed keyboard part or sour note on a rhythm guitar, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Pero]

There has to be a guy who plays keyboards for Streets.

 

[Achtung Ya'll]

Wasn't it established that that was something unusual that has not been done during any other performances of Sometimes (i.e. Brooklyn Bridge, Radio 1)? Might explain all of the complaints about the guitar being drowned out, actually.

Anyway, I'm yet to see anyone offer conclusive proof that additional musicians play along with the band. Guitar techs tune guitars, and synths and pre-recorded backing tracks are triggered, but that's not the same as someone in the shadows playing a pivotal role in the song, the same kind of role as the four onstage, and not being credited for it.

As it's been said before...they have done this on ZooTV and I'm fairly sure PopMart tours as well (didn't realize he was there for Elevation but that makes sense).

I don't know if I have it anymore but there was a big article up in some magazine during the PopMart tour that detailed the workings of the "underground" (pit under the stage...at least I think it was called the underground..may be something else).

Also didn't willie williams diary from elevation have something about this as well on u2.com?

 

[Achtung Ya'll]

Okay, I'm not disregarding the possibility of a backup keyboard player tucked away under the stage but live is live and ANY musician will eventually make a mistake, especially if they're playing the same thing night after night. My question is, if there are backup musicians, how come we don't have any examples of their mistakes?

The human element in any live performance simply creates the occasional mistake. I just don't hear it on any boots I have. If anybody has any example of a flubbed keyboard part or sour note on a rhythm guitar, I'd love to hear it.

Either:

a.) they just didn't make a mistake

or

b.) it's just not as noticeable b/c the parts they play aren't as discernable or prominent.

 

[U2utah2U]

a) is simply impossible. All live performers make a mistake at some time.

b) However, this is very possible and most likely the answer.

I actually would rather have a live keyboard player, even hidden, as opposed the U2 simply playing to "minus tracks." That would just turn them into the biggest selling karaoke band in the world.

 

[GG_The_Fly]

b.) it's just not as noticeable b/c the parts they play aren't as discernable or prominent.

Indeed, it is b. - i mean we all are debating whether there are extra musicians or not - clearly their parts are not particularly noticable - and furthermore, musically, these piano/organ parts are VERY SIMPLE and any decent keyboardist would hardly make any mistakes.

Example: use the BonoCAM 'easter egg' on the Boston DVD - watch his view for Elevation - you can notice a number of things - Bono checking out the other members of the band, e.g., periodically looking behind at Larry, at the people seated behind the stage, at Adam and, of course, Edge. You'll also notice the keys being played along with the song and it is VERY simple but does add some depth to the song.

And to whomever wrote about Streets - they're right - the organ part is definintely being played by a live person - and that is probably the most noticable example of the keyboard being used.

PS: There's no doubt that Terry Lawless was performing LIVE - I just received an email reply I sent to a friend who was performing at the Grammy's and he noticed it and was surprised - both watching U2 at their soundcheck and backstage afterwards.

I kinda feel bad for the guy. . . can't you see him going up to some girl at a bar and after her asking him what he does, he says: "oh, i tour and play live for U2." She says, "well, i was at the concert and i saw FOUR guys. . . you're obviously FOS."

 

[saltines17]

Although I also have issues with pre-recorded backing tracks, I recognize that sometimes it's just easier to do that than have 100 people on stage.

Having said that, U2's arrangements are not as complicated as, say, Peter Gabriel's, who already has 8 people on stage and still needs prerecorded tracks. If U2 needs extra performers, which they do, I would really like to see them share the stage with the band.

 

[blueyedpoet]

for a long time U2 has been very aware of the visual side of things. i've seen many traditional bands add other members onstage. it can be distracting (eg Aerosmith) or it can be just chill (eg Green Day). Think about it, wouldn't be weird for U2 to have another performer onstage? It's always been Bono, edge, Larry, and Adam (and then the underground)

 

[Canadiens1131]

Yeah, I have no problem with U2 using a hidden keyboardist off-stage, because U2 uses synth as atmoshperic backup. There is a BIG difference between keyboard work in a song like Streets, compared to keyboard work in a song like The Who's Baba O'Riley. U2 has always had keyboards as part of the backdrop of the song, not the lead, and as long as that remains the case I don't see the need to stick this Terry fellow up behind Edge and next to Larry.

 

[blueyedpoet]

canadiens are so cool...in fact, i'm wearing a Sydney Olympics team Canada shirt....all that is to say, thanks canadiens1160 for agreeing with me

 

[cmb737]

Terry Lawless is a sequencing and keyboard technician. There is a gigantic difference between a Keyboard/Sequencing tech who runs a show and being an additional musician. Most tours carry at least 2 or 3 of these people. I have a very good friend who does it professionally (Toni Braxton, Usher).

Check Mr. Lawless' resume here:

http://members.aol.com/lawlesongs/resume.html

I am an audio professional working in this field and reading this does not lead me to believe he is a 5th member of the band or anything like that. His credits seem to imply that he is a technical consultant for sequencing and sound design.

No where on his resume does he list performance credits (which he would be paid for and would mostly likely list). He does not list the Slane DVD as a credit.

Sampling is the key. That is why there are no mistakes.

He is not a member of the musicians union, either...and click his link to U2 and you find yourself at atu2.com. Nice. Most of the other tours he has worked with have 1 if not more full time keyboard/piano players.

By the way, today he is in Dublin at the rehearsal studio with U2. Click the link to see where he is!

 

[U2girl]

If you watch the Making of Elevation on the DVD, when they show the bit with Edge kicking the guitar, they show a quick clip of it from a beneath the stage perspective, and there's clearly a guitar player and synth player in the shadows.

That would be Dallas Schoo, Edge's guitar tech. Since he had to take care of 13 guitars throughout the tour, I doubt he had the time to play anything big during the show.

Terry Lawless - as we know, he plays keyboards on Streets. Big difference between playing a support role and playing a major part of a song.

U2 uses pre-recorded keyboard lines and occasional guitar chords as opposed to additional live players - if you look at the stage closely you will notice Edge has a little box/console at his feet to trigger various sounds. ("underground" triggers some of those sounds too, I'm sure) Which would explain why they are flawless.

As long as all four of them play live and produce most of the sound and Bono doesn't lip-synch during the songs, that's good enough for me.

 

[Shaliz]

I was just reading Bill Flanagan's U2: At the End of the World the other day and came across this....might shed a little light on the whole argument. Sorry for the length...just wanted to give the whole context.


"Underworld, the vast network of work areas behind and beneath the stage, is a beehive city. On Edge's right, in a bunker two steps down, sits guitar tech Dallas Schoo with a roomful of guitars, tuners, and spare parts. It is a fully functioning guitar shop. During the concert Dallas will break off a conversation to pump a wah-wah pedal so that Edge can get the effect while keeping his own feet free to move across the stage. Just outside Dallas' room, in a cubbyhole that gives him a clear view of the stage, sits Des Broadbery at an elaborate console of keyboards and computer screens. Des runs the sequencers that fill out U2's sound and make it possible to approximate the elaborate sonic effects of Achtung Baby onstage. Des has a computer file standing by with any U2 song the band might suddenly pull out of their hats, and if it needs a synth pad or second guitar, Des is ready to drop it in. When Edge is playing the solo on "Ultra Violet (Light My Way)," for example, Des is under the stage providing a sampled eight-bar guitar figure in the background.

'There's no room for human error in what I do,' Des says. 'You have to be sharp. There's an awful lot depending on what goes on in my area. What really matters when they're up there onstage is to make sure they're with me or I'm with them.'

I ask Des what he does when the band loses their place in mid-song, as a result, say, of Bono getting excited and coming in early. 'What would happen,' Des explains, 'is I let them find out where they all are and then I go ahead of them to a chorus or verse and wait there until they catch up.'

U2 first used sequencers in concert to get a handle on "Bad" from The Unforgettable Fire. By The Joshua Tree tour sequencers were beefing up eight numbers. Now it's a rare U2 song that doesn't have Des adding some sample, phrase, or backing part."


I don't know if this means that this is the way U2 have always handled the keyboard/synth/guitar parts. Maybe things have changed since the ZooTV days. Or am I wrong to take Flanagan's word for it? I'm still learning alot about U2, so feel free to set me straight on this.