yolland
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- Aug 27, 2004
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Ah c'mon, give him a little more credit than that.nbcrusader said:This thread could become part of the author's book.
Ah c'mon, give him a little more credit than that.nbcrusader said:This thread could become part of the author's book.
Sherry Darling said:
Sting, perhaps this didn't come across over the Internet, but I asked you an honest question in a sincere effort to understand where you are coming from. It did not warrent the hostile tone above. Can't you discuss this a bit more civilly? I'd appreciate it.
You've asked, so I will describe. My experience is coming from two main experiences--one being a teacher, and two, having lived abroad in cultures radically different from mine where I was the minority, which "put the shoe on the other foot" and taught me what "benign" exclusion is really like. It's degrading, isolating, confusing and painful. Peace Corps is one example when I was in Zimbabwe, the only whiter person and American for several hundred miles. Kids would follow me around any time I went outside in wide-eyed fascination. I was harassed on buses.
Meanwhile, in the classroom. I asked about you classroom experience, String (which you did not answer) because it was amazing to me that someone suggested this issue hasn't been, well, an issue. Anyone in the past 15 years on either side of the desk has had to deal with it. The solution I used wasn't terribly tough: the day before break, we brought in chips, soda, etc, some kids baked Christmas cookies, our school was decorated some for winter (snowflakes, snowmen, etc) and Christmas andHaunakua (sp? ack!) but that's it. In an area (No. VA) with HUGE Asian and Middle Eastern popuations, no Ramadan or Buddist recognition by our public education institutions, which are supported by tax payer $ from Christians and non-Christians alike. I did not call our party a Christmas party--I think I usually used the word holiday. Non-Christian kids had to take days off for their holy days, which created more work for both of us and sent a clear message to the kids (whether intended or no) that their culture is not the one our public (again TAX $ SUPPORTED) institutions recognize, just as sending a Jewish or Buddist or JW kid to the library while other kids have a Christmas party sends that message. You are different, and you need not to be or go away. Perhaps it takes having had the experience of being a minority to really understand this.
Funny, it may seem ironic, but as a Christian who wants to follow the example of the Christ who reached out to the socially undesirable Samaritan, I can't support such exclusion. It comes down to two principles for me. 1. If you pay taxes into a system, it should at least in part represent you. 2. Treat people how you'd want them to treat you.
I guess what I'm submitting, Sting, in response to your sentence that you haven't seen any trouble caused, is that just because you haven't seen it hardly means it hasn't happened.
yolland said:
Did I ever say or suggest I felt persecuted by Christmas parties?
So if you could go back with me to one of those "holiday" parties at my grade school in Itta Bena in the 70s, where as I was saying, no Christian child ever complained...you would tell them they should complain, that having that token menorah and dreidl song in there for me was a threat and they should not let the teacher get away with it, and should demand moreover that the party be called a "Christmas party" too?
melon said:
Stop thinking about what you're losing, and think about what you'd be gaining if you had a party that celebrated several religious traditions. If you want a hardcore Christmas party, celebrate it with like-minded friends and family at home, or organize one with your church. Again, Christmas is not cancelled when you do not have government acknowledgement of it.
Melon
STING2 said:There is nothing wrong with celebrating something that is an American tradition in American. Think of all the years that a Christmas Party was called a Christmas Party and no one even remotely thought about calling it a Holiday Party. Did anyone suffer adversly? Removing American traditions is not the way to bring about some sort of diversity or greater inclusiveness. Other celebrations are not cancelled because something in government does in some way acknowledge Christmas.
VertigoGal said:Sting, it's not excluding Christmas, it's including other traditions as well. I think deep down some Christians are just afraid of losing their idea of America as a Christian nation.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Well they do say ignorance is bliss. It's nice being part of the majority all your life, I'm guessing the only place you've ever been a minority is in here being part of the conservative few. Being a minority in real life is much different.
Well for your information there are those that feel their faith isn't respected as much as others because of this practice in our school system. How do I know this, because I've had this conversation many many times. A part of my family is Jewish.
200, 100, 50 years ago?! You don't say. Well hell women voting and slavery weren't problems back then either. DAMN THOSE MINORITIES!!!
STING2 said:
There is nothing wrong with celebrating something that is an American tradition in American. Think of all the years that a Christmas Party was called a Christmas Party and no one even remotely thought about calling it a Holiday Party. Did anyone suffer adversly? Removing American traditions is not the way to bring about some sort of diversity or greater inclusiveness. Other celebrations are not cancelled because something in government does in some way acknowledge Christmas.
melon said:
Traditions change. See the gift giving shift from New Years Eve to Christmas in the late 19th century as a prime example. If it's good enough to tell the minority to shut up and take it, then I'll tell the majority this:
"Shut up and take it."
Melon
STING2 said:
Having a Christmas Party does not prevent having a different type of celebration on another day, nor does it prevent acknowledgement or celebration of another tradition. I can't imagine going to another country and demanding they stop calling or performing centuries old traditions because it was not apart of my culture or tradition. On the contrary, I'd be far more interested in immersing myself in the culture rather than trying to water it down or block it.
U2DMfan said:
In other words "because that's the way it is".
I'd be willing to listen to a compelling argument the other way, but this line of thinking is reminiscent of the close-mindedness that I believe truly seperates this country more than anything.
People grow up and have to read in their American history books, about embarassing stains on this countrys image because of people who just want to play up to "traditions" and doing things because "that's the way they are".
No, this issue is not tantamount to segregation or more harsh situations, but the point being made is about "traditions". Traditions only mean as much to each individual as they mean to that individual. Once you begin enforcing your own traditions on others, you step into a precarious area where you have ceased being accomodating to differences and you just want it your way "because tha's the way it is/was."It's never a good excuse.
It is no big deal to me, personally, whatever they want to call it they can call it. When this corporate holiday really gets back some of it's meaning, I'll take note and take issue when it is disparaged, until then it's another day off from work.
I am not a champion of the anti-Christmas cause or anything, I just think it's a fight that isn't worth fighting for. It's not a hallowed meaningful religous holiday, maybe it never was, but I think increasingly it's not a Jesus issue.
VertigoGal said:
Well, seeing as no one is really in school ON Christmas, it really is just a party taking place in winter or the holiday season. What is the problem with including other traditions as well? You act as if America is a Christian nation and those of other faiths don't also make up its "culture." Which is funny, because I always thought that one of the very things that set this country apart was that it is not defined by a certain ethnic race or religion, the whole "melting pot" and all. If I were going to Saudi Arabia I'd expect to immerse myself in the Islamic culture but that's not how I'd like to think of this country.
And really, this isn't banning all private family or neighborhood Christmas parties, it's just making parties in publicly funded schools more inclusive and representative of the faiths of other Americans.
STING2 said:
So if one moves to a new country where there are centuries old cultural traditions, the entire country should remove or cancel such traditions in a way to "accomadate" the new citizen. That is beyond absurd.
STING2 said:
Its always interesting when people make ignorant presumptions about others. Part of my family is also Jewish. Also interesting to see that calling a Christmas Party a Christmas Party is now being compared to slavery.
STING2 said:
I can't imagine going to another country and demanding they stop calling or performing centuries old traditions because it was not apart of my culture or tradition. On the contrary, I'd be far more interested in immersing myself in the culture rather than trying to water it down or block it.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
I made no presumptions or comparisons. I'm just showing other American "traditions" that have changed.
Sherry Darling said:Dread: too bad Feel better.
Sting: A couple of points I might make in response to your last post.
1. From a practical point of view, any teacher can tell you it's not possible to include the holy days of every kid. We'd ever get any teaching done. LOL. Hence from this standpoint, a more all purpose "holiday" fest is the best way to handle scheduling in a way that is inclusive.
2. Your consistently seem to assume that people who protest Christmas are immigrants. This is a telling and false assumption. I would respectfully encourage you to revisit it.
3. You also consistently characertize people who object to their Muslim/Jewish/atheist kid as "whiners" or "over anxious" or "pushing a political agenda". What evidence can you bring to bear to support this description? And what makes you think it's just a few people, anyway? Why, just a tally of this thread alone demonstrates otherwise. BVS, Yolland, Dread, VG and I hardly fit that description, do we?
The below is a general statement and not directed at anyone in specific but musings on people who oppose a simple inclusive gesture such as "holiday party" instead of "Christmas party":
Why so unwilling to share public space? Why can't we just include everyone just cause it's nice to do so? Because we're a welcoming people who are secure enough to be okay with folks who aren't like us?
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Why do you keep talking about moving to another country. This isn't about people moving here wanting to make a change. It's about the people here realizing this country is not a Christian country. That there are other religions and when attending school, we should take that into consideration.
STING2 said:Thats the way its been in this country for centuries.
It was not problem 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago, and is really only and issue now because a small minority has decided to whine about it.
In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, "replaced" pagan religion. On Christmas, believers attended church, then celebrated raucously in a drunken, carnival-like atmosphere similar to today's Mardi Gras. Each year, a beggar or student would be crowned the "lord of misrule" and eager celebrants played the part of his subjects. The poor would go to the houses of the rich and demand their best food and drink.
When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
By the coming of the Civil War the antipathy shown toward the celebration by some religious groups and like-minded individuals was rapidly softening. Indeed, "by 1859, the general attitude towards Christmas had changed sufficiently for the Sunday School Union" to accept the holiday to such a degree that it published hymns and accounts of celebrations. This was emblematic of a general acceptance of Christmas by many denominations.
Successive waves of German immigrants probably packed in their cultural baggage the custom of adorning their homes with a small tree. As they spread through the nation, so too did the decorated tree. The Christmas tree had become widely established by 1860.
Governments recognized the growing importance of Christmas by dealing with it as they knew best: by passing a law. Prior to the American Civil War, the North and South were divided on the issue of Christmas. Many Northerners considered it sinful to celebrate Christmas, since Thanksgiving was a much more "appropriate" holiday. In the South, however, Christmas played an important role in the social season. Perhaps not surprisingly, the first three American States to declare Christmas a legal holiday were located in the South: Alabama in 1836, and Louisiana and Arkansas in 1838. Between 1850 and 1861, fifteen more states followed suit. In 1907, Oklahoma became the last US state to declare Christmas a legal holiday. A significant result of this "legislation" was the states' recognition of December 25th as Christmas Day. This helped standardize the date for celebration. Previously, celebrations took place at varying times during the month (particularly December 6th, St. Nicholas's day, or January 6th, Epiphany).
The greatest of all modern Christmas icons, Santa Claus, was evolving during the same period. St. Nicholas' first appearance in the New World was in 1492, when Columbus named a bay after him. Times became rather lean for the saint after that, partly because America's mainly Protestant settlers disdained saints and the rituals associated with them. Washington Irving, Clement Moore, and the anonymous author of Kriss Kringle's Book (1842) were the literary pioneers who helped establish Santa Claus. Kriss Kringle's Book told of St. Nicholas, or Kriss Kringle, a "nice, fat, good humored man" who brought gifts for good children.