The Statue of Liberation Through Christ

[anitram]

Is this thread still about the 2008 election?

Let's get back on topic then.

 

[verte76]

Thanks yolland. As a historian I have similar sentiments. In fact, Franklin was a great admirer of Voltaire, who believed in God but was ferociously anti-clerical. If you've ever read Candide, as I have four times, you get where he's coming from.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

This scares the shit out of me...

This country is failing.

Yes, Christianity is SOOOOO scary these days.



And the link to the picture: http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i228/paddykraska/facism.jpg

And the link to the source:
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i228/paddykraska/

These are PHOTOSHOP jobs. The poster's intentions are unclear to me, as to whether this was supposed to be humorous, exagerrated, or manipulated.

I will let Anitram speak for herself.

 

[yolland]

Why do you say that? Here's a link to the actual New York Times story the picture came from. Looks exactly the same to me.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Why do you say that? Here's a link to the actual New York Times story the picture came from. Looks exactly the same to me.

Okay, now we actually have valid links.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/07/04/us/05liberty.1901.jpg

The original post had a misleading link, as mentioned.

 

[BVS]

Yes, Christianity is SOOOOO scary these days.



And the link to the picture: http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i228/paddykraska/facism.jpg

And the link to the source:
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i228/paddykraska/

These are PHOTOSHOP jobs. The poster's intentions are unclear to me, as to whether this was supposed to be humorous, exagerrated, or manipulated.

I will let Anitram speak for herself.

I didn't say Christianity, please look at my earlier post.

And about the first photo, you are wrong. As for the second, the link takes me to a whole album, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I didn't say Christianity, please look at my earlier post.

And about the first photo, you are wrong. As for the second, the link takes me to a whole album, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

About the link, fine. It misled me. Don't worry about it.

AS FOR YOUR ARGUMENT:

You didn't specify what exactly "scares the shit" out of you.

Is it evangelical Christians?
Is it some kind of theocratic doctorine I should be aware of?

And if so, why?

Because they believe that God has blessed their country?

Fill me in.

 

[BVS]

80's asked me the same exact question a couple pages back, please read.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

It reeks of people who aren't very tolerant of other religions in this country...

And that scares me.

How is that? Are they raiding the homes of Buddhists? Hindus? Jews?

And to what point would you consider to be intolerant?
Believing that Jesus is the Son of God?
Believing that Christianity is the one true faith?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

"It's a big issue," Ms. Nelson said. "Liberty's supposed to have a fire, not a cross."

Great. Another Christophobe pretending to be patriotic.

Elena Martinez, a loan officer visiting Memphis from Houston, said her family was speechless at the sight.

"The Statue of Liberty has a different meaning for the country," Ms. Martinez said. "It doesn't need to be used in a religious sense."

Yes, but it can. And it will.

 

[BVS]

How is that? Are they raiding the homes of Buddhists? Hindus? Jews?

And to what point would you consider to be intolerant?

The Statue of Liberty has always been a sign of welcoming among other things, a welcome sign for all, once you turn it into a "christian" symbol you you've destroyed that.

If this symbol is truly what you want for America then you are turning this country into what Saudi Arabia is for Christianity for all other religions.

Sounds like the tolerant melting pot of America doesn't it?

 

[BVS]

Great. Another Christophobe pretending to be patriotic.

He's stating a fact, how is this being a Christophobe, you have no clue of his faith. Do you know his faith?

Yes, but it can. And it will.

 

[Irvine511]

How is that? Are they raiding the homes of Buddhists? Hindus? Jews?

And to what point would you consider to be intolerant?
Believing that Jesus is the Son of God?
Believing that Christianity is the one true faith?

no. the scary part is when you take these tenants of faith and think that they should be used to govern people.

Christianity is not a political party, nor does it give you license to hate.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

The Statue of Liberty has always been a sign of welcoming among other things, a welcome sign for all, once you turn it into a "christian" symbol you you've destroyed that.

It is also a work of art, and art can be shaped and interpreted in any way you want it to be. I see no harm in those who chose to express their freedom of religion in this form.

If this symbol is truly what you want for America then you are turning this country into what Saudi Arabia is for Christianity for all other religions.

First off, there are many ways to express your first amendment rights. They aren't forcibly redesigning the Statue of Liberty, nor are they legislating against other cultures by doing it.

Sounds like the tolerant melting pot of America doesn't it?

First off, too many have engaged in cultural segregation rather than embracing the idea of the melting pot. I'm unclear as to whether your definition of "melting pot" fits mine.

Melting Pot: A place where immigrants of different cultures or races form an integrated society.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

no. the scary part is when you take these tenants of faith and think that they should be used to govern people.

Christianity is not a political party, nor does it give you license to hate.

There was no "hatred" expressed on the statue. All they are doing is letting people know that their founding fathers emphasized our endowment given by the Creator. They aren't even burning the Koran if you can believe that.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

He's stating a fact, how is this being a Christophobe, you have no clue of his faith. Do you know his faith?

One indication that he is NOT a devout follower is him being offended by the presence of Christianity. These animals are all over the place on the National Day of Prayer.

Religious beliefs without the use of threats or violence IS protected speech, love it or hate it.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

For someone to get so worked up over people professing their loyalty to their faith and their country is disgusting.

 

[BVS]

It is also a work of art, and art can be shaped and interpreted in any way you want it to be. I see no harm in those who chose to express their freedom of religion in this form.

First off, there are many ways to express your first amendment rights. They aren't forcibly redesigning the Statue of Liberty, nor are they legislating against other cultures by doing it.

Yeah, you are missing the point. It's a political and religious symbol of what they desire. A burning cross isn't just a piece of art, neither is a swastika. Now I'm not comparing the two but they come with intent behind their symbol.

A cross alone doesn't come with any intent except that this group or people worship Christ. But when combining it with an American symbol that changes. Look at their website, they do have intent. They do want their beliefs to legislated.

First off, too many have engaged in cultural segregation rather than embracing the idea of the melting pot. I'm unclear as to whether your definition of "melting pot" fits mine.

Melting Pot: A place where immigrants of different cultures or races form an integrated society.

But that's not the point. It doesn't matter if my definition fits yours. The truth is this country is made up of different races, religions, cultures, etc. And it was built upon the backs of all these different people. This symbol is an insult to all those people of other religions that gave their life, worked their asses off, or gave their hearts and souls to help or build this country.

Yes, they have the freedom to express such thoughts, but regardless such intolerant thoughts scare me.

 

[BVS]

One indication that he is NOT a devout follower is him being offended by the presence of Christianity.

Did he say he is offended by Christianity. You know what they say about assumptions. This statue scares me, are you judging my faith?

Mac, your judgements and assumptions will get you in trouble someday.

Religious beliefs without the use of threats or violence IS protected speech, love it or hate it.

Yes it is, and once again you miss the point.

 

[BVS]

For someone to get so worked up over people professing their loyalty to their faith and their country is disgusting.

Is that all they are doing?

http://www.worldovercomers.org/statue/purpose.htm

I'll be back this afternoon...

 

[Irvine511]

There was no "hatred" expressed on the statue. All they are doing is letting people know that their founding fathers emphasized our endowment given by the Creator. They aren't even burning the Koran if you can believe that.

no way.

when you show the Statue of Liberty endorsing a specific, particular religion -- which, if it were the real SOL, would be a blatant violation of the Establishment Clause -- then you are saying to other religions as well as agnostics and atheists that they are 2nd class citizens.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Yeah, you are missing the point. It's a political and religious symbol of what they desire. A burning cross isn't just a piece of art, neither is a swastika. Now I'm not comparing the two but they come with intent behind their symbol.

But yet you exaggerate that what they desire is a Christian theocracy. Should we fear it more than an Islamist theocracy?

A cross alone doesn't come with any intent except that this group or people worship Christ. But when combining it with an American symbol that changes. Look at their website, they do have intent. They do want their beliefs to legislated.

The new Statue of Liberation Through Christ is a 72 foot replica of the original Statue of Liberty with a cross in the right hand, designed to remind America of its spiritual liberation and its foundation in God.

Lady Liberation's theme inscription reads as follows:

Give me your POOR, BROKENHEARTED
Your CAPTURED, BLIND, AND BRUISED
Your huddled MULTITUDES yearning to be free;
The wretched LOST SOULS from shore to shore, Send these, the SICK, OPPRESSED, HOMELESS
The tempest LOST to Christ. I lift the cross as a symbol that CHRIST IS THE DOOR.

(Luke 4:18, John 8:32b, Romans 7:24, Acts 10:38, 2 Corinthians 4:3, John 10:9)

Nothing mentioned on the statue contradicts Christianity. Neither does the Constitution itself, the Bill of Rights, or the Declaration of Independence.

"THE LIBERATION OF OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS" book... never read it, but I could look into it to see what the big deal is. If private schools and homeschooling are under attack as it is, you can expect parents of those students to push religion in public schools as a direct result of a monopoly of public schools.

But that's not the point. It doesn't matter if my definition fits yours. The truth is this country is made up of different races, religions, cultures, etc. And it was built upon the backs of all these different people. This symbol is an insult to all those people of other religions that gave their life, worked their asses off, or gave their hearts and souls to help or build this country.

Yes, they have the freedom to express such thoughts, but regardless such intolerant thoughts scare me.

What religion has done more for America than Christianity? Somehow, the cross is ridiculously mistaken for a symbol of oppression by loons from the ACLU and other Anti-Christian organizations. It is not "intolerant" to admit that our country has been shaped by Judeo-Christian values and heritage.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

no way.

when you show the Statue of Liberty endorsing a specific, particular religion -- which, if it were the real SOL, would be a blatant violation of the Establishment Clause -- then you are saying to other religions as well as agnostics and atheists that they are 2nd class citizens.

Is that how they interpret the presence of a Mosque? Or even (imagine this!) a mosque that was pro-American?

Is the government itself enforcing a particular religion? No.

Therefore, this whole "separation of church and state" argument is irrelevant.

Rather, it has become a "separation of church and private citizens" argument.

 

[Irvine511]

Is the government itself enforcing a particular religion? No.

Therefore, this whole "separation of church and state" argument is irrelevant.

of course the government isn't.

but that doesn't change the fact that i, and many others, are disgusted by the photograph because it is advocating a destruction of the separation of church and state.

i don't see a bunch of christians expressing their patriotism.

i see a bunch of insecure idiots praying for something they would never actually want to live.

 

[Irvine511]

What religion has done more for America than Christianity? Somehow, the cross is ridiculously mistaken for a symbol of oppression by loons from the ACLU and other Anti-Christian organizations. It is not "intolerant" to admit that our country has been shaped by Judeo-Christian values and heritage.

you should really re-read Yolland's earlier post.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

They are only advocating their loyalty to their beliefs and their country. It doesn't mean they want the real statue of liberty to have a Bible in one hand and a shotgun on the other.

 

[Irvine511]

They are only advocating their loyalty to their beliefs and their country. It doesn't mean they want the real statue of liberty to have a Bible in one hand and a shotgun on the other.

but they put a cross in one of hands -- so now, instead of lighting the way to liberty, she's saying, "non-Christians, keep out!" how different is that from the bible-and-a-gun imagery?

they have every right to do this.

and i have every right to think they're a bunch of idiots.

 

[INDY500]

Much less offensive to the New York Times no doubt.

 

[Irvine511]

Much less offensive to the New York Times no doubt. [/B][/QUOTE]



perhaps if she were dressed up as the statue of liberty? i can fully understand if a christian were offended. i'm not, but not having seen her concert, it looks more self-aggrandizing and silly than anything. but she's well within her rights as far as artistic self-expression goes.

but keep on kicking at the NYT!

soon, you won't have any boogeymen left to blame.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

but they put a cross in one of hands -- so now, instead of lighting the way to liberty, she's saying, "non-Christians, keep out!" how different is that from the bible-and-a-gun imagery?

they have every right to do this.

and i have every right to think they're a bunch of idiots.

Earlier, you expressed that you see a bunch of idiots, yada yada yada. You're entitled to see what you see, no doubt about it.

But now, you make the accusation that they want our country to deny legalized admission into the country as long as they aren't Christians.

I'm over my head as to how you've arrived at that conclusion.

If this were the case, can you tell me which Christians would be rejected and which would be accepted?

Would Mormons be rejected?
How about Catholics?
How about Christians who frown on prayer in public?

I was really hoping you would notice my exaggeration of the "Bible + Gun" combo, which would easily amount to the "Koran + Knife" combo.

They aren't advocating that different views and beliefs are not welcome in America. They are however praising their Creator for allowing them to practice what they preach without being sent to a gulag for it.

It's NOT about "Christo-fascism," it's about expressing their freedom of speech.

We both agree they have the right to do so.

I don't find it offensive, but maybe you do.

It would be intellectually dishonest of me to offer you an apology because I don't feel the way you do about it. I'm not bothered by the presense of a religion that I don't follow, unless it is conducted in a threatening manner to my way of life.

But I see no direct threat to your rights as an agnostic that would infringe on whether or not you can choose your way of life. I'm assuming you are still an agnostic, so correct me if I'm wrong.