The border between a snippet and a song.

[Axver]

I'd like to state first that this thread isn't to debate what is required to be a snippet in the first place. I've seen some people who think tiny references shouldn't be noted, but we're not discussing those. This is to discuss when a song should be considered a snippet and when it should be considered a separate song.

I personally consider a song to be a snippet if its lyrics are sung to the music of another song - for example, on Rattle And Hum, it doesn't matter how much of Ruby Tuesday Bono sung, because the band is playing Bad and the lyrics are a snippet. However, this raises the dilemma of lines sung before or after a song has started/finished. Take, for example, Unchained Melody on ZooTV. One has finished. Bono sings Unchained Melody separately from One and Edge plays the music of Unchained Melody, but it is by no means the full song.

Similarly, on Elevation's third leg, before Walk On, Bono would sometimes sing a bit of Peace On Earth while Edge played the melody. At some performances, this was so brief that it was clearly a snippet preceding Walk On, but at some shows, a sizeable portion of the song was sung and it seemed independent of Walk On.

So at just what point should we consider something to have, if you will, graduated from snippet status to a full song? Is there a clear line between snippet and full song? In fact, can a line be drawn or will some 'snippets' continually be open to debate and individual opinion?

 

[Queen Bee]

No to everything.

 

[Chizip]

No to everything.

.

 

[Axver]

Originally posted by Axver
So at just what point should we consider something to have, if you will, graduated from snippet status to a full song?

Queen Bee's reply
No.

The point we should consider a snippet to have graduated to full song status is 'no'? That made truckloads of sense, Queen Babsical.

 

[phanan]

I'd say it's only a full song if it was done in its entirety. If only one or two verses are sung, I don't consider it a complete song. If only the chorus is done, I don't consider it a complete song. Even if it takes place after the previous song finished, it's still not a full song in my opinion.

 

[Axver]

I'd say it's only a full song if it was done in its entirety. If only one or two verses are sung, I don't consider it a complete song. If only the chorus is done, I don't consider it a complete song. Even if it takes place after the previous song finished, it's still not a full song in my opinion.

So you would say that Unchained Melody on ZooTV was a snippet of One?

How about songs that are played 'in full' but not sung completely, such as New Year's Day with the missing "and so we're told this is the golden age, and gold is the reason for the wars we wage" line?

 

[U2mixer]

How's about we use this terminology?

Snippet = when a song/lyric is briefly performed as part as another song performance.

Partial = when a song is played 'partially' (ie not in its entirety) but as a separate performance.

Partial snippet = a partially played song within the performance of another song.

Whattaya think?

Just redited my post to make it clearer.

 

[karls77]

How about songs that are played 'in full' but not sung completely, such as New Year's Day with the missing "and so we're told this is the golden age, and gold is the reason for the wars we wage" line?

First ^ of couse this is a song! Why you waste your time even thinking about this one is beyond me.

Your knowledge is impressive but I think you're really over-analysing things here. A song is a song and when they only play a bit of it then its just part of a song or a snippet or what ever else you want to call it. Just enjoy the sets and stop trying to quantify/label/categorise everything!

 

[U2mixer]

...Why you waste your time even thinking about this one is beyond me...Just enjoy the sets and stop trying to quantify/label/categorise everything!

It's for REFERENCE, man!

It's for fans that want info about song performances and where to find them.

Next you'll be saying "why did Pimm Jal de La Parra bother with his book!".

 

[karls77]

It's for REFERENCE, man!

It's for fans that want info about song performances and where to find them.

Next you'll be saying "why did Pimm Jal de La Parra bother with his book!".

I have no problem with recording the setlists. I have the de la Parra book and it's a great reference. What I don't get is this weird need to clearly define when a song is a snippet vs. a partial snippet vs. etc..... I realise people enjoy U2's music differently and some people enjoy tracking setlists, but it just seems to me from some of the posts in this thread that it's being taken to a ridiculous extreme.

If people are that curious as to whether a snippet was included during or after a song or whether it was a separate song they can just listen to the bootleg. My main point is that music is not an exact science and that setlists are organic and thus should not/cannot be quantified.

 

[Blue Room]

Snippets are not songs!

Sorry, couldnt resist.......

On topic, I think for it to qualify as a full new song it needs to be completely separate from any other songs, the music needs to be played for that song (different chords, etc..), and it needs to be at least a full verse and chorus of that song. Otherwise I think its a snippet.

 

[phanan]

So you would say that Unchained Melody on ZooTV was a snippet of One?

How about songs that are played 'in full' but not sung completely, such as New Year's Day with the missing "and so we're told this is the golden age, and gold is the reason for the wars we wage" line?

Well, for the show I saw on ZooTV, I'd consider Unchained Melody a snippet, as it only lasted about a minute and definitely wasn't a full portion of any version of that song , although it wasn't a part of One.

As for New Year's Day, they sing the single version of that song, and that's why that verse is left out. That should be counted as a full song.

Obviously, this is a gray area when it comes to determining each setlist, and I guess it would need to be determined on a show-by-show basis.

 

[U2mixer]

...If people are that curious as to whether a snippet was included during or after a song or whether it was a separate song they can just listen to the bootleg...

But you can't own or listen to every bootleg.
And you have to remember that some bootleg setlists have songs credited wrongly therefore you might see a bootleg for sale with So Cruel included in the tracklisting listed as if it was a full song - you know what I'm getting at.

... My main point is that music is not an exact science and that setlists are organic and thus should not/cannot be quantified.

I DO know where you're coming from, but we are not taking from the pureness of a performance - we're just after a good cataloguing system, that's all.

I think that you do understand that we are true fans of the band and therefore enjoy more than most the music and the spontaneity of the performances.

 

[Halup]

I consier that there are 2 things that u2 does in shows a lot: they play what I consider snippets, such as Blackbird in Beautiful Day and they play short songs, such as Unchained Melody or Ol' Man River, which have nothing in common with One.

In the case of the time I saw them play Ol' Man River, One was clearly finished and Bono went into a discussion for at least 30 seconds, with no music playing then began the song. It clearly was not a snippet in the usual U2 sense, in that it was a song fragment sung by Bono over the music of a U2 original song.

Also, I'd like to mention the case of In A Little While from the November 2, 2005 show. It's being listed as having been a snippet at the end of Still Haven't Found or in some cases, it's not even mentioned. I've only seen the November 1 and 2 shows for the third leg, so I'm not sure how it's done on most night. On November 1st, In a Little While was clearly a snippet. Just some short lyrics sang over the ending of Still. On November 2nd, it was entirely different. It was intended to only be a snippet, but it took on a life of its own and actually was no longer a snippet. Instead, it was more of a segue from Still into Little with the music the band was playing being closer to Little than to Still and Bono was singing the regular lyrics and also creating ad libbed lyrics mentioning Ali who was present at the show. This went on for at least 2 minutes and probably was closer to 3. In my mind I saw a performance of In A Little While that night and not just a snippet of it, like I saw on November 1st.

What I don't know is how unique that performance of In A little While was that night. I know the full song was played in Las Vegas and also at a show in September, so I'm assuming that I saw the 3rd performance of it on this tour, because I believe normally it is only a snippet, but in reading the setlists, this is not clear. That creates a real gray area.

I consider Cry to be a separate song than The Electric Co. and consider it a full song, not a snippet, as this song has never been more than like 30-45 seconds in length. There is no reason to distinguish this as a snippet, because a more full version of this song does not exist.

I've seen 2 different lengths of Peace On Earth live, with the 2 verse version being played at the final Elevation show in Miami. I consider these both as full songs and not snippets, as they are the only way this song has ever been played and the music being played during them had nothing to do with the music of Walk On, which followed it.

I saw the Zooropa tour in Dublin where the short version of The First Time was played. In my mind until a couple months ago, I considered this as a song I had seen U2 play live, even though it was only a small portion of the song, because U2 had never played a longer version of it live. Once they started playing it on this tour, the full length song, in my mind I no longer could consider it as a song I had seen U2 play live, until I saw them do it in November.

When I look at a U2 setlist, I like there to be as little gray are as possible as to what was played. The confusion over whether U2 really played Norwegian Wood is a good example. I assumed Bono just sang a few lyrics, then I read on NME.com that they played it as a song. Their article mentions thet they did Help! after One, but then they do not list it in the setlist they printed below their article.

Personally, the way I would make a setlist database is to include snippets sung by Bono during a U2 song as in this example: Beautiful Day (Blackbird).

In the case of songs played after One or a song like Peace On Earth, I would list them as separate songs: One, Ol' Man River.

In the case of songs that are separate songs, but segue into one another I would list them as: Cry/The Electric Co.

 

[tommycharles]

Song sung over a different song's music: snippet
Song sung partially with it's own music: I like "part"
New Years Day: Full song. even if it hasn't ever been the album version, that's just an exception.
All I Want Is You ,Popmart version: I'd go with "part" here, very rarely was enough of the song done with the right lyrics to qualify calling it the full song.

 

[Niceman]

It seems to me that there is something distinct that is more than a snippet, but less than a full song. I'm not sure what to call it.

 

[Axver]

First ^ of couse this is a song! Why you waste your time even thinking about this one is beyond me.

I agree with you entirely - I can't believe it has been bought up, but a few people have in the past to try to prove something was/wasn't a snippet.

I have no problem with recording the setlists. I have the de la Parra book and it's a great reference. What I don't get is this weird need to clearly define when a song is a snippet vs. a partial snippet vs. etc.

Clarification purposes, so that when someone wants to know about a setlist, they get the clearest idea of what U2 played. It bugs me that someone could end up with the false idea that U2 have played Song X twenty times when in reality, it was just a verse tacked on after One, or something like that.

I like some of the suggestions on this thread for expanded notation including 'partial song' and what-have-you. I think that's useful for reporting setlists here. I wish I could have the benefit of that kind of notation when I'm posting sets on U2VT - I may even see if it can be instituted, though it of course creates the problem that bootlegs for every show aren't available and not everyone has those that are, so it'd still make some setlists difficult.

 

[Axver]

On topic, I think for it to qualify as a full new song it needs to be completely separate from any other songs, the music needs to be played for that song (different chords, etc..), and it needs to be at least a full verse and chorus of that song. Otherwise I think its a snippet.

I definitely agree on those standards. My problem comes when you have, say, a song with four verses and only two are sung. That's clearly not the full song as people know it, but it seems to have gone beyond a snippet.

And with regards to the ISHFWILF --> IALW performance from LA II that Halup brought up, I think that should continue to be called a snippet. Unless my ears are mistaken, the band continues to play ISHFWILF's melody while Bono improvises lyrics - and those improvised lyrics are as much part of that performance of ISHFWILF as they are IALW.

 

[ouizy]

I really like this thread.

I don't like the idea of bringing a third category 'partial' into the mix.

To me - if the band plays a song, whether it is theirs or someone else's it has to be complete. That said, if one verse is dropped of the end, or left out of the middle, I still consider it a song if the start with the beginning of the song, and end it formally somehow.

Anything less than that to me is a snippet.

So if they play half a song, at the end of another song starting in the middle of a song = snippet.

If they sing one line at the end of a song = snippet

If they end a song, then play a part of another song = snippet.




Which leads me to another topic that I was going to start a new thread on, but will just do it here. I am finding more and more that there are more and more snippets throught the shows, and more and more these are pretty obscure songs.

Now one notion to me is that if the band had any kind of time constraint fo rthe shows (i.e. curfew) and you added up all the snippets and time it took to play them, I am quitre sure we could get another U2 song in there, possible two.

That said, and since that won't happen, I really am in the opinion that if the band are going to continue the snippet routine, man I would just love it if they snippeted their own songs and not this obscure crap.

I mean - I think it would be great if they snippeted some of their rare, or unplayed stuff. If they are not, or can not play the full song for whatever reason, I think it would be amazing to hear U2 snippet U2.

Here would be a couple of my suggestions using their latest show and where they used snippets:

Vertigo - Mofo
ISHFWILF - Heartland
Beautiful Day - Discotheque
Original of the Species - Angel of Harlem
Sunday Bloody Sunday - Unforgettable Fire
One - One Step Closer
Yahweh - One Tree Hill


OK - I could not resist and added the last two, but the others are where songes were snippeted last night...

 

[thelaj]

Full Song: All of song played (perhaps missing a line or two eg New Years Day)

Fragment: Part of song played to its own music, or acappela (no more than 50% of song)

Snippet: Additional unrelated lyrics added to a song, without changing the basic music.

Thats my opinion anyway. For example, I never consider "wake up dead man" to be a full song on the Boston DVD, and it annoys me its credited as such.
Its like DVDs having "animated menus" as a "feature".

 

[Ellay]

What about when they sang staring at the sun over the end of discotheque during elevation (think it was the arnhem show)

It started out as discotheque but turned into some kind of weird mess, not sure if it counts as snippet or part. One bootleg acknowledges it in the tracklisting, but the second doesn't.

 

[Halup]

What about when they sang staring at the sun over the end of discotheque during elevation (think it was the arnhem show)

It started out as discotheque but turned into some kind of weird mess, not sure if it counts as snippet or part. One bootleg acknowledges it in the tracklisting, but the second doesn't.

I saw this coupling in the Sunrise, Florida tour opener and that would be consdiered 2 songs that are connected by a segue, like how An Cat Dubh and Into The Heart are or how when The Electric Co. frequently starts with Cry, which is an entirely different song. You could also refer to it as a medley of the 2 songs, but it's incorrect to think of it as Discotheque with a snippet of Staring.