Vlad n U 2
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I swear I had heard it somewhere before, parts of the song feel familiar to me but maybe it's just that unmistakable early 00s atmosphere.
Revolver Upstairs, Chapel St, Prahran, Victoria Superthread
- Thread starter cobl04
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
bono_man2002
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Alisaura
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Just watch out for that HERAWIN stuff, you wouldn't want to make tuf bono sad.
liamcool
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I'm so glad something really punny won: The 10 best jokes of the Edinburgh Fringe 2014
djerdap
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
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So I was in a middle of a discussion today with a couple of colleagues from work which left me pretty infuriated, and I'd love to hear thoughts from you guys here, whom I know to be active readers. The topic (obviously) concerned reading; why it seems that people read less and less today, and how the educational system with obligatory reading lists and reading requirements can be counter-productive, turning people off reading in the long-term. My crude suggestion was that students and pupils have more freedom about their reading choices; that they have a right to choose between a couple of writers from the same period (e.g. Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky, Kafka or Proust, Pushkin or Poe etc.), depending on what they feel like is more to their tastes and will interest them more. This is of course simplified and open to debate how this would look like in the end. Whether this would be more work for the teacher only depends on whether the usual curriculum would make all those books compulsory or not. The point was that I don't think there is a simple separation line between people who like and dislike reading. People who have the potential to read more can get frustrated with the required reading choices and completely put off by reading in general because of this. I feel this happened to me in high school and to some of my friends as well, which is why there was a long period of me not reading anything during college. Other reason is that the curriculum in my high school was simply too big to cover all the books that had to be read due to not having enough time (not to mention the fact reading speed is completely individual), so some styles and periods of writing were completely neglected. "Filtering" this could mitigate the effect.
Now, this idea is obviously imperfect, but the response I got was baffling. Analogies were made with the class in mathematics, where students would then want to choose whether they would learn more geometry or algebra, which I think is absurd, since literature is a very subjective area that should take into account interests of the student. I didn't even suggest that the students would then make their own curriculum or something extreme like that; the whole system would only be slightly more flexible. The system today is a disaster since nobody reads books anymore and everybody uses online guides, not only because they're not interested (and let's face it, that is the majority), but also because there is simply too much stuff to read. The other side didn't provide a single argument as to how this could be resolved. Instead they were making silly analogies like the math one.
So, opinions and your "required reading" experiences would be most welcome.
Now, this idea is obviously imperfect, but the response I got was baffling. Analogies were made with the class in mathematics, where students would then want to choose whether they would learn more geometry or algebra, which I think is absurd, since literature is a very subjective area that should take into account interests of the student. I didn't even suggest that the students would then make their own curriculum or something extreme like that; the whole system would only be slightly more flexible. The system today is a disaster since nobody reads books anymore and everybody uses online guides, not only because they're not interested (and let's face it, that is the majority), but also because there is simply too much stuff to read. The other side didn't provide a single argument as to how this could be resolved. Instead they were making silly analogies like the math one.
So, opinions and your "required reading" experiences would be most welcome.
liamcool
Blue Crack Addict
At the moment in New South Wales, for English/literature, there are four sections to the curriculum, all of them based thematically - one of them is something EVERYONE has to do, but there are about a dozen texts for it, and you only have to read one or two of them. The other three there are two or three modules that each fulfill the requirements, and there are two or three texts for each module - in most cases it'd be something classic like Frankenstein, and something modern like Bladerunner. All of the choices as to what was taught was done by the teachers in the ordinary English classes, so the students got no choice in that regard, even though it was available - teachers prepare their teaching plans in advance, etc.
There were a few requirements that had to be fulfilled, though - in our school, EVERYONE had to read one Shakespeare play a year, minimum. I am someone who really likes reading theatre, I did Drama as an elective, but I cannot fucking stand Shakespeare - I'd much rather read Wilde or Beckett or Stoppard. Part of it is because I'm looking for something particular in theatre (I like things that deconstruct themselves and play with form over sonnets), part of it was because it was shoved down our throats that we had to do Shakespeare and got no choice in the matter.
In extension English, we got to take a vote within classes as to what books we'd read for an entire year. We had a choice between Victorian literature and post WWII-literature - my class was made up mostly of girls, who obviously have a far stronger preference to the former, and so I was stuck reading Austen and Bronte for a year instead of Kerouac and Ionesco. Sadly, I was pretty miserable in that class as a result.
The problem is, at least here, we're taught to memorise all of these textual references and styles within a piece without actually having to really get our teeth into the damned thing, so it got to the point where you could memorise an essay with all of your neat points in order, and it sounds really nice and good and fancy. I made a joke that wouldn't it be awesome if they changed the question to fuck people over.
They did - in the final exam, instead of asking for analysis from three texts, they asked for analysis for only one of three texts, or only two of three texts. People flipped out and wrote their rote learned essays anyways, and the board of education had to come out and say they'd mark those essays anyway.
Fucking cunts.
Maths syllabuses are utterly broken, anyways.
In university contexts this problem is significantly lessened because instead of "analysing" a book for an entire term, you read a book a week, so you get a lot more exposure to different styles, which is a much better approach, I think.
The only "required" reading we had in our university English classes was texts written by the lecturer of the course, which I regarded in disgust - that's a really ethically shitty thing to do in a course about fiction, I think, both in profiteering and developing analytical skills.
That said, most people will just use online guides, you're right - there's a pretty distinct difference between people looking to get an education in a particular course, and people using it to get credits to get their diploma and get out.
There were a few requirements that had to be fulfilled, though - in our school, EVERYONE had to read one Shakespeare play a year, minimum. I am someone who really likes reading theatre, I did Drama as an elective, but I cannot fucking stand Shakespeare - I'd much rather read Wilde or Beckett or Stoppard. Part of it is because I'm looking for something particular in theatre (I like things that deconstruct themselves and play with form over sonnets), part of it was because it was shoved down our throats that we had to do Shakespeare and got no choice in the matter.
In extension English, we got to take a vote within classes as to what books we'd read for an entire year. We had a choice between Victorian literature and post WWII-literature - my class was made up mostly of girls, who obviously have a far stronger preference to the former, and so I was stuck reading Austen and Bronte for a year instead of Kerouac and Ionesco. Sadly, I was pretty miserable in that class as a result.
The problem is, at least here, we're taught to memorise all of these textual references and styles within a piece without actually having to really get our teeth into the damned thing, so it got to the point where you could memorise an essay with all of your neat points in order, and it sounds really nice and good and fancy. I made a joke that wouldn't it be awesome if they changed the question to fuck people over.
They did - in the final exam, instead of asking for analysis from three texts, they asked for analysis for only one of three texts, or only two of three texts. People flipped out and wrote their rote learned essays anyways, and the board of education had to come out and say they'd mark those essays anyway.
Fucking cunts.
Maths syllabuses are utterly broken, anyways.
In university contexts this problem is significantly lessened because instead of "analysing" a book for an entire term, you read a book a week, so you get a lot more exposure to different styles, which is a much better approach, I think.
The only "required" reading we had in our university English classes was texts written by the lecturer of the course, which I regarded in disgust - that's a really ethically shitty thing to do in a course about fiction, I think, both in profiteering and developing analytical skills.
That said, most people will just use online guides, you're right - there's a pretty distinct difference between people looking to get an education in a particular course, and people using it to get credits to get their diploma and get out.
OP
OP
cobl04
45:33
I'm ashamed of how little reading I do these days. It's a mix of two things - the pervasiveness of technology and my inherent laziness. I used to love reading. Now I hardly ever do it. Instead of reading a book I 99.99999% of the time just go for the "easy" option and sit on my phone on here, or FB, or twitter, or wikipedia.
I didn't do a great deal of reading at uni because most of my subjects were creative writing/journalism (and I hated reading arbitrary set excerpts of academic texts for essays and the like) but man did I love it at high school. I adored Literature. I remember one of the books we read was Pat Barker's Regeneration, and it was one of the most profound experiences I ever had at school - first read through it I kind of shrugged the whole thing off but as we began to study the text I found myself utterly enthralled with it. There was a line - "the silvery sound of shaken wheat" - that still stands out in my mind today... when I first reported back after reading it I ignorantly dismissed it as page-filling tripe, but I came to adore that attention to detail.
Still fucking hate poetry though.
I didn't do a great deal of reading at uni because most of my subjects were creative writing/journalism (and I hated reading arbitrary set excerpts of academic texts for essays and the like) but man did I love it at high school. I adored Literature. I remember one of the books we read was Pat Barker's Regeneration, and it was one of the most profound experiences I ever had at school - first read through it I kind of shrugged the whole thing off but as we began to study the text I found myself utterly enthralled with it. There was a line - "the silvery sound of shaken wheat" - that still stands out in my mind today... when I first reported back after reading it I ignorantly dismissed it as page-filling tripe, but I came to adore that attention to detail.
Still fucking hate poetry though.
bono_212
Blue Crack Distributor
What really encouraged me to read as a child (after my parents already installed a love of reading in me before I started school) was the "Accelerated Reader" program present from K-8th grade. Certain books would be labeled "AR" books depending on your grade. You read the book, took a ten question quiz and got "AR Points". Whenever you felt like it, you could turn the points in to "buy" things on a cart in the school library. It was fantastic. Turned reading into a game.
Additional to this, each year, there was a list of twenty books deemed "Hoosier" books (Hoosier is the Demonym for someone living in Indiana). If you read 15 of the 20, you got a trophy, as well as AR points as you tested on the books. If you read all 20 you got a trophy, AR points and I think a gift card or something. I can't remember now, since it was so long ago.
I loved it.
Additional to this, each year, there was a list of twenty books deemed "Hoosier" books (Hoosier is the Demonym for someone living in Indiana). If you read 15 of the 20, you got a trophy, as well as AR points as you tested on the books. If you read all 20 you got a trophy, AR points and I think a gift card or something. I can't remember now, since it was so long ago.
I loved it.
bono_212
Blue Crack Distributor
Also, not to be a big ole party pooper, but Cocaine is one of the drugs on the list of "Not even once", for me. Just take care of yourself, dude.
I like Lovorko's idea, and I think to avoid doubling teachers' workloads you could simply appoint one teacher within a school the marker of all essays on one book and another teacher on the other. As long as the books are sufficiently similar, you could teach common themes in class without requiring any increase in workload.
My experience in Queensland a decade ago was not dissimilar to what Liam describes in NSW. Although teachers had a range of choices, the choice lay with them alone so we just got whatever they picked (including a requirement for one Shakespeare a year that I think has created a generation of people who hate Shakespeare). Usually my school co-ordinated the choices so that all classes in a year did the same book and to make sure the library had sufficient copies for loan, but in year twelve my English class did Macbeth while all the others did Hamlet.
In later years, English pretty much boiled down to:
1. A Shakespeare unit.
2. A fiction unit, usually mid-twentieth century (e.g. Camus, Orwell).
3. A poetry unit.
4. A film unit.
There was little incentive to do the reading and I was considered somewhat of a freak whenever I enjoyed the books. To be fair this attitude was partly ingrained in us by some abysmal choices in year eight and nine, so by the time we got to some better choices in year ten everybody just expected the assigned reading to blow. Plus I think there's just something in Gold Coast culture that sees reading as trivial and nerdy. Certainly from talking to people from elsewhere, I wouldn't have incurred the mockery I did for finishing To Kill a Mockingbird in a night.
My experience in Queensland a decade ago was not dissimilar to what Liam describes in NSW. Although teachers had a range of choices, the choice lay with them alone so we just got whatever they picked (including a requirement for one Shakespeare a year that I think has created a generation of people who hate Shakespeare). Usually my school co-ordinated the choices so that all classes in a year did the same book and to make sure the library had sufficient copies for loan, but in year twelve my English class did Macbeth while all the others did Hamlet.
In later years, English pretty much boiled down to:
1. A Shakespeare unit.
2. A fiction unit, usually mid-twentieth century (e.g. Camus, Orwell).
3. A poetry unit.
4. A film unit.
There was little incentive to do the reading and I was considered somewhat of a freak whenever I enjoyed the books. To be fair this attitude was partly ingrained in us by some abysmal choices in year eight and nine, so by the time we got to some better choices in year ten everybody just expected the assigned reading to blow. Plus I think there's just something in Gold Coast culture that sees reading as trivial and nerdy. Certainly from talking to people from elsewhere, I wouldn't have incurred the mockery I did for finishing To Kill a Mockingbird in a night.
liamcool
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Yeah, we had pretty horrible choices; our year 12 Shakespeare was Julius Caesar, which is one of the most boring Shakespeare plays. (We'd done R&J, Macbeth, Midsummer's, but never Hamlet or Lear or anything really exciting, and the only Shakespeare play I'm into is Richard III, which is an obscurity for high schoolers.)
The Shakespeare we did was:
Year 8: The Merchant of Venice - truly AWFUL choice for a bunch of twelve and thirteen year olds; I'm sure I would've quite enjoyed it if we'd done it later.
Year 9: A Midsummer Night's Dream - I hated it, but definitely a better age-appropriate pick.
Year 10: Romeo and Juliet - FUCK OFF FUCK OFF FUCK OFF.
Year 11: Henry V - this was when I realised I didn't hate Shakespeare; thoroughly enjoyed it. (Also, in year 11 Drama we did The Tempest, which I loved.)
Year 12: Macbeth - again, thoroughly enjoyed it.
Year 8: The Merchant of Venice - truly AWFUL choice for a bunch of twelve and thirteen year olds; I'm sure I would've quite enjoyed it if we'd done it later.
Year 9: A Midsummer Night's Dream - I hated it, but definitely a better age-appropriate pick.
Year 10: Romeo and Juliet - FUCK OFF FUCK OFF FUCK OFF.
Year 11: Henry V - this was when I realised I didn't hate Shakespeare; thoroughly enjoyed it. (Also, in year 11 Drama we did The Tempest, which I loved.)
Year 12: Macbeth - again, thoroughly enjoyed it.
djerdap
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I never read a single Shakespeare play, although I know the stories from the film adaptations. Macbeth and King Lear appeal to me the most (Kurosawa did very good with those), and maybe I'll try those two some day.
bono_212
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We won the Shakespeare theater in Chicago's annual school lottery, so we were able to attend a performance of The Taming of the Shrew for free. Because of that, we read it instead of the usually required Julius Caesar. It was a nice change of pace.
bono_212
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I really try hard not to talk about work on the Internet, if I can help it...but I just can't take this shit anymore.
Where I work, offices are scattered throughout the building. Most people work in the main office, but some people work downstairs and then I and another guy in post are in this one section by ourselves. I don't know if I'm just reading into shit that isn't there, but he seems to hang around my desk constantly. I don't know, like, just now, he got in for the morning and he's all "Hey!" and I'm like, "hey." and then he goes to his desk, which is around the corner from mine, so I can't really see him, but can hear him. To get to my office, you have to walk through a door. But he never walks through the door. He always sidles around the corner, really slowly and that alone irritates the shit out of me. Like he's trying to slink in or something. Anyways, then he'll just kinda hang there for a few minutes trying to get me to talk to him and a lot of the time I'm really busy and I say as much, but then he still hangs there. I don't know if he's lonely, or what. But, occasionally he's made inappropriate comments as well. But they're fairly innocently inappropriate. So I have no idea, again, if I'm being paranoid, or if he's only a little bit of a creeper.
Either way...he's driving me insane.
Either way...he's driving me insane.
Alisaura
Blue Crack Supplier
I would love to write a huge post about reading and school but I'm on my phone and supposed to be working. Maybe later if I don't fall into the lazy/technology trap that, like cobbler, has eaten my reading time.
Also
Also
Ashley, if you're not comfortable with that guy's behaviour, it needs to stop. If you don't want to talk to him about it, try talking to your manager or someone. I hope your workplace has a robust harassment policy/process and the management is supportive.
Kieran McConville
ONE love, blood, life
I try to read a fair bit but my school experience (long, long ago) cannot be extrapolated to anything. The set reading list when I went through school put me off (with a couple of exceptions) reading the kind of books that get put on high school English lists (in no particular order, The Admirable Chrichton, The Pigman(!), To Kill A Mockingbird (ok that was pretty good), Tess of the Durbervilles, Merchant of Venice).
Didn't put me off reading, per se. And maybe I later delved into some of that stuff, and a lot more, for my own peculiar reasons. And the one book that did more to influence me than maybe any other, including stimulating a love of history*, is... drumroll, puleeze, the Lord of The Rings; exactly the kind of book that my high school English teacher would have pooh-poohed.
I think the Internet** is actively incompatible with any sort of thoughtful, slow reading, let alone writing, and if I can't read a book from cover to cover, fiction or nonfiction, I'm well on the way to losing my fucking mind.
*Didn't stimulate a love of modern fantasy though. **outside of a bit of daily news and forum posting, sure
Didn't put me off reading, per se. And maybe I later delved into some of that stuff, and a lot more, for my own peculiar reasons. And the one book that did more to influence me than maybe any other, including stimulating a love of history*, is... drumroll, puleeze, the Lord of The Rings; exactly the kind of book that my high school English teacher would have pooh-poohed.
I think the Internet** is actively incompatible with any sort of thoughtful, slow reading, let alone writing, and if I can't read a book from cover to cover, fiction or nonfiction, I'm well on the way to losing my fucking mind.
*Didn't stimulate a love of modern fantasy though. **outside of a bit of daily news and forum posting, sure
Alisaura
Blue Crack Supplier
How about using Wikipedia as lazy research for writing? 
Kieran McConville
ONE love, blood, life
Hey, Wikipedia is pretty good (though not flawless, and depends heavily on the subject).
bono_212
Blue Crack Distributor
Thanks
. I was in an awful mood this morning and on edge about almost everything. Hopefully things calm down in general once my car purchasing is done and I can relax again.
OP
OP
cobl04
45:33
teachers were always like "don't use wikipedia" but fuck those cunts wikipedia is great.
I always tell my students not to cite Wikipedia, but that it's a good place to start for many topics. It can help focus thought or clarify confusing events, and good quality articles typically cite many useful and important sources. Basically, it can be a handy springboard to proper research.
Kieran McConville
ONE love, blood, life
I wouldn't 'cite' Wikipedia, and my 'academic' days are long gone, but for what it is, it's a very useful thing. I'm glad that it exists. Sources and related links are helpful (so is going in with your eyes open). In short, I wouldn't cite Wikipedia in the same way that I probably wouldn't cite my own (long forgotten) undergraduate essays. But they were alright.
I've seen far worse things cited than Wikipedia. Self-published ebooks by online cranks. Personal blogs. Messageboard threads. Year 11 school project pages. Holocaust denial websites.
It really is quite extraordinary what some of these people think they can get away with citing - or are so oblivious that they think it's an acceptable source.
It really is quite extraordinary what some of these people think they can get away with citing - or are so oblivious that they think it's an acceptable source.
OP
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cobl04
45:33
Obviously you're retarded if you cite it. But it's a brilliant starting point.
djerdap
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
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Wikipedia is great. One always has to check the sources though when writing something serious (and then obviously cite those sources instead of citing Wikipedia).
liamcool
Blue Crack Addict
Ax, opinion on Masters theseses being cited?
Ashley, I'm sorry to hear that
Ashley, I'm sorry to hear that
liamcool
Blue Crack Addict
Also obligatory hic, I'm drunk, I'm terrible, self hate, etc etc. I'ma go sleep now. But y'know. Everything is terrible, and I shouldn't have watched that execution video.
bono_212
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A lot of teachers, I feel, really fucked up this whole Wikipedia thing. If they would just teach their students how to use Wikipedia, then I think you'd find far more well-informed people.
Ax, opinion on Masters theseses being cited?
Ashley, I'm sorry to hear that
Whenever I cite something that isn't exactly a legit source, I always make sure to mention that it's credibility is up for debate. For example, I wrote a paper about Irish Penal Laws in the 18th/19th century for a course on Pop Culture in Early Modern Europe (awesome class). In the course of writing it, I had a discussion with Irishteen about what, if any impact it still had on Ireland today and he was full of great anecdotal stuff. So, I quoted him (by his real name, lol, not Irishteen), but mentioned that it was just one young man's opinion.
I would think, if you're forward about where your source is from, and the relative credibility of it, you can get away with a lot more.
And thank you, I really do feel better today. I think I was both too tired yesterday, and too stressed out by a lot of silly little things.
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