Axver said:
What I think is sad is that despite all of the technological improvements in the 23 years between them, October still manages to sound better - much, much better - than HTDAAB. HTDAAB was thoroughly ruined by "louder is better" production. Ugh, the clipping in Crumbs From Your Table makes me want to find whoever mixed that and give them a swift kick in the pants. I'd love to know why U2 approved that for release.
Again this is really interesting. You have some very good points, but increasingly you're talking production quality, which I see as a separate topic from the development of songs on an album. I'd still like to hear what U2 songs from other albums you consider as incomplete.
Axver said:
I don't think it's even close. Look at how some of the songs developed live. I don't mean tour-by-tour reinventions, but changes that have become a permanent or semi-permant element of the song. One's "do you hear us coming?" verse is a good example, as is the extension of Mysterious Ways. WGRYWH is notoriously incomplete; the band have made no secret of their displeasure with it. And oh goodness, could UTEOTW's ending be neutered any more on the album?
Again you make some good points, but as you mention, U2've been reinventing their songs for live performance for more or less their whole career.
I can see that we're looking at this differently- you say that compared to what they became after repeated performance and improvement, songs like One, Mysterious Ways, End of the World and Wild Horses became much better than the versions on Achtung Baby. I'd agree with that almost 100%.
However, I thought we were comparing October the Album to other U2 albums, so I'm a bit puzzled as to why October is not even mentioned in your second paragraph. If anything I think your point about AB songs live vs album versions makes the point even more clearly- in general October's songs weren't even given the opportunity to grow and improve as live songs. Personally I attribute this to the fact that about half of them weren't even finished in the first place.
You're making good points Axver, but I don't think we're really discussing the same thing. What I'm trying to say is that if you were to sit down and listen to all of U2's albums AS THEY WERE RELEASED, October as a whole stands out as having many more songs that sound very unfinished when compared to the majority of tracks on other U2 albums.
I've gone and dusted off my October cassette and a walkman (haha) so I can be more specific..
After listening to the album about three times for the first time in admittedly quite awhile, I'd say that there are two things going on on October that aren't in nearly as much evidence on any other U2 album.
1) the "unfinished sketch" quality of some songs- this is primarily a musical issue- I'm thinking mainly of Scarlet and Is That All? which sound like starter riffs that were thinly stretched to become entire songs. Lesser examples are almost the entire album.
For reference, songs from other albums I'd say suffer from this musical underdevelopment are the First Time, One Step Closer, and Dirty Day.
2) Bono's lyrics are incredibly oblique in a non-satisfying way. In general, Bono's lyrics are well-known and loved for being non-specific in a way that encourages personal interpretations with multiple layers of meaning. On October though, amost all of the songs have a vagueness that makes them inaccessible or frustrating rather than endearing or inviting. I fall down, I threw a brick, stranger in a strange land all suffer terribly from this, and i'd say rejoice, fire and with a shout do to a lesser degree, in that lyrically they have the seeds of incredible songs, but seem to have left their heart buried and unrevealed in a way that the larger scope of Bono's work rarely does. I get the feeling that with one or two more re-writes they could have become something great.
Lyrically underdeveloped from other albums- Indian Summer Sky and Elvis Presley and America. I'm realizing that there may be a blurry line between lyrical development and lyrical delivery- Promenade i don't think of as being lyrically underdeveloped, but Bono's delivery on the album makes it very difficult to understand and therefore, to get into...
I don't think it's a coincidence that few of these songs have been performed or developed into something more on tour. They seem to have been considered "filler tracks" almost from the beginning, maybe with the exception of "One Step Closer".
It is interessting that Gloria, Tomorrow and October are almost universally considered the three good tracks from October. I don't think it's a coincidence that they seem to rise above the two major problems I've described above. Gloria and Tomorrow are both very interesting musically- they seem much better structured and organized- they take you through a journey that changes and evolves, albeit for the most part around the conventional verse-chorus-verse format (but U2 have done most of their work within that and made it shine incredibly well) - they just seem more completed musically and trade knowingly between musical passages where Adam, Edge and Larry all take the lead in turn, as opposed to the music of most of the rest of the album, that seems sort of random and not really aware of where it's headed.
Lyrically I'd also say Gloria and Tomorrow are much more purposeful- Gloria is a beautifully written rock//postpunk//new wave song that is also an expression of praise and faith - even successfully putting in some Latin - ambitious and sincere achievements that have really not been done before or since in all of rock music. Tomorrow, lyrically, operates beautifully on at least
two levels- as a song to God and to Bono's departed mother. It's not hard for the listener to also think of it as being sung to a close friend either, and the line about the black car hints at another realm of meaning that could be both very specific and very universal.
October stands as a bit of an anomaly - musically it is very simple but very clear and beautiful - lyrically as well, very spare but very powerful, the first part anchored by specifics the second by universals. It is a great example of the "less is more" concept. A whole album of songs like this wouldn't work, but it stands out majestically on October, and in the U2 catalogue as a whole.
I think I'm actually going to be more interested in this round than any of the others. To me October has always been the inaccessible U2 album, and writing this has helped me to undestand why.
After taking some time to think about it, I have a greater appreciation for Rejoice, Fire and With a Shout than I did before, but it seems very obvious to me that these songs could have become so much more than what they are, as recorded on this album.
One last thought, to me the October album has long stood as the best argument for U2 taking the time they feel they need in the studio. As diehard U2 fans, we can all get a bit frustrated that they take longer than most bands to record and release their albums, but the way I see it, the feeling I get from October that it is not nearly what it could have been, (again I'm talking music and lyrics, NOT MIXING OR PRODUCTIN) coupled with the fact that it was recorded and released faster than any other in their catalogue, is the perfect reason that they should take the time they feel they need to complete albums in their own way and in their own time.
/end dissertation on October.