Mp3 vs Tapers Question Debate!! Your opinion desired!

[camiloj]

No it was certainly not you Blue Room. I had no clue about the other discussion until today. I didnt read that thread that far...

I basically told this guy that I still feel that if people want the "sub standard" quality of an mp3 show and it exists, they are entitled to it. Many people from ALL OVER THE WORLD, not just the Yahoo LA Group, have emailed to thank me for the shows that have been offered. Many people would not have been able to get the pure recordings from him and the other tapers. So I think there will always be people who can benefit from the mp3s, because it is all they can get their hands on. I would not want to block out these legitimate fans from hearing great U2 concerts just because the quality is not as perfect as it could be.

You see, for this guy it was more that it was appalling that this lower quality mp3 file format might make it out into the hands of people. Also, it is sourced on other websites now so no one needs to be asked permission by the time it makes it to me. I got my mp3s from U2Blood Red Sky, not a CDR trader.

Anyway, the good news is that he said he undertood my point (and then he went on to suggest that I just put certain songs fromn the shows up but not whole shows).

Anyway, thank God its a free country (for now but thats another subject altogether)!


[This message has been edited by U2LA (edited 12-13-2001).]

 

[mbi16]

Ah ah ah, lol, sorry but I think know who e-mailed you. Anyway I would just like to say that I think some people take this way too seriously. I can see where you all are coming from but really isn't it all a bit silly when you consider it's all illegal anyways? Besides if we were to treat it as if it were legal then we'd be back to the old Napster debate.

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Tha Prickly Comedian

[This message has been edited by mbi16 (edited 12-13-2001).]

 

[Hans Moleman]

I'm enjoying LA 3 right now. Nice concert, and if people are bitching that quality is lessened because of MP3s, then I can only laugh further. Compared to the days when we were mostly forced to deal with analog tapes and vinyls, MP3s are great, and I don't have to worry if my CD gets scratched or damaged in some way.

Why do tapers hate MP3s? For the same reason these uber-fans have to go to over a dozen Elevation shows in the heart and hate the fact that U2 is going on the Super Bowl: exclusivity. There is somehow this belief that anything popular is inherently bad. They want U2 all to themselves. All I can say to that is tough. This is the internet, and if we can download the newest U2 album a month before it comes out, you cannot reasonably expect to have people "respect the wishes" of the tapers, much in the same capacity that people don't respect software or music label "wishes."

Regardless of the debate, that taper mentality is an unrealistic one. MP3 and CD-R trading can coexist, but, as I said earlier, proper source labeling is necessary. While I can respect those who prefer authenticity, it is not an ideal that I personally share in regards to U2 bootlegs.

As for "Not Given," I thank him for his bootleg, and I hope he continues them in the future. I disagree with his contention that MP3s are not high quality, and that is that. It may not be 20-bit 48000 Hz stereo DAT or 16-bit 41000 Hz CD, but, with the right computer speakers, processing speed, and sampling rate, MP3s do sound brilliant enough. The fact that these shows can be enjoyed by many more around the world more than offsets the so-called "quality" difference.

~Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."

 

[Popmartijn]

Hello,

I just noticed this thread, so some of my replies are of posts that were posted quite early in the discussion. Sorry about that.

Originally posted by Hans Moleman:
But I know how it is. Some of these tapers revel in exclusivity. Notice how hard it is to find SHN files out there, and, unless you are part of some little hacker clique out there, you don't get them. If I am wrong on this one, please post some HTTP/FTP sites where I may download them for free, a URL for a program where I could burn these SHNs to CD, and, since I have a T3 for one more day, I will burn and distribute out several of these bootlegs.

You can find much information about SHN-files on http://www.etree.org That site also has links to programs to convert SHN-files to WAV-files.
As for WWW/FTP sites; try the ElevaSHN mailinglist on Yahoo Groups, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ElevaSHN/
This mailing list is all about U2 trading, especially in SHN format (although there are also many trades/B&P's/giveaways in 'regular' CD format). The introduction letter to this group will also mention some addresses for FTP sites. You can also see this information on http://www.elevashn.net
One WWW site where everyone can freely download a SHN show is located at http://u2.trading.net The page hasn't been updated for a loooooong time, hence the reason it is still offering the May 24 Toronto show.
There is another U2 trading mailing list called U2trading (Doh!). You can find this mailing list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/u2trading/
Oh, and before I forget, there is also a website with many addresses of traders: http://www.u2trading.com The site is static now (ie. it won't be updated anymore), but it has a lot of information.

So don't say anymore that it isn't easy to locate traders who have shows in the best quality possible!

C ya!

Marty



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People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by Hans Moleman:
Why do tapers hate MP3s? For the same reason these uber-fans have to go to over a dozen Elevation shows in the heart and hate the fact that U2 is going on the Super Bowl: exclusivity. There is somehow this belief that anything popular is inherently bad. They want U2 all to themselves.

That is not true. Most traders do not hate MP3 because they want exclusivity, they just want to have the best possible recording to archive (and share). A U2 live recording is a historical document. It shows the quality of the band during a particular concert. And the more people can hear this document, the better. But they also want to have people to hear the recording in good quality, the best quality available.
They also want people in the future to hear these recordings and as close to the original (recording) quality as possible. And MP3 is quite bad for archives, as it deletes a lot of sound information. Another disadvantage is that the spreading of MP3-sourced bootlegs disturbs the pool of recordings (I know, disturb is not the right word, but I cannot come up with the right expression at the moment). People start to make judgements based on bad quality surrogates of recordings ("Don't take LA3 as it is of bad quality" when maybe only the MP3 encoding was bad) and it also becomes difficult to find the show in its original format.
That is the whole reason behind the dismissal of MP3, not some mythical exclusivity bullshit.

Marty


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People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[Hans Moleman]

Well, that is the nature of trading and copying: you might end up with bad copies. With MP3s, there is no generation loss, unlike with cassettes, and you get a lot in a small file. Obviously, the problem with SHNs is file size, and not a lot of servers can afford that much space.

MP3s are unnecessarily bashed. No, it is not perfect quality, but you will never get "perfect" unless you are sitting right there at the concert listening. MP3s are perfect enough, and I've never heard of a case where MP3s dramatically destroy the quality of an excellent show. People should be smart enough to realize that if you get an encoding of less than 160 kbps, it is not brilliant, if you get an encoding of 128 kbps, it is still very good, but there are fewer ambient noises, and if you get any less than that, you are being screwed, and shouldn't judge a boot on that encoding scheme. I can't help it if people wish to destroy things.

And thanks for the SHN links. I'm downloading Toronto right now.

~Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."

 

[GABSTER]

Blue Room

I worked for LSD in Birmingham for five years on the road so I do happen to know about the equipment involved.

Your arguing about quality then you listen to the CD-R driving down the motorway with trucks blasting past you or on some crappy cd player. Even the sound at some of the gigs at the venues have not been great so your source is crap even before you record it. You cant record record a U2 show with just two mikes standing in one location. You need at least a dozen placed in strategic positions along with a good professional mix after.

I am surprised on this tour there has not been a FM radio show. Dublin RDS in 93 and Lovetown in 89 blew the arse out the bootleg market for those tours as it gave your average U2 fan access to great recordings.If ws U2 I would mix one of the other shows say MSG and stick it on there web site for free download.

 

[Jayhawk]

Originally posted by GABSTER:
Blue Room

I worked for LSD in Birmingham for five years on the road so I do happen to know about the equipment involved.

Your arguing about quality then you listen to the CD-R driving down the motorway with trucks blasting past you or on some crappy cd player. Even the sound at some of the gigs at the venues have not been great so your source is crap even before you record it. You cant record record a U2 show with just two mikes standing in one location. You need at least a dozen placed in strategic positions along with a good professional mix after.

I am surprised on this tour there has not been a FM radio show. Dublin RDS in 93 and Lovetown in 89 blew the arse out the bootleg market for those tours as it gave your average U2 fan access to great recordings.If ws U2 I would mix one of the other shows say MSG and stick it on there web site for free download.

Gabster---I don't mean any disrespect concerning your post, but there seems to be a GIANT information gap between what has been posted about tapers and what kind of actual taping is going on. I am really not technically smart enough to even begin to explain the advances that have been made with taping---especially on the last 2 tours. The sound quality that is being obtained on this tour by some people is absolutely stunning compared to the past. But I do agree about a radio show. It would be a great thing for U2 to do that for it's fans again and I am sure an Elevaton broadcast would be an enormous hit.



[This message has been edited by Jayhawk (edited 12-14-2001).]