MERGED: Will there be cheering...? + YES! there is cheering... + Iraqi town liberated

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
"Whether it is true or not is not my perogative. "Perception" is the key here. I have a feeling that, a year from now, the Iraqi people will have vastly differing opinions, much like Russia's awakening after Stalin."

But Melon, I do not deny that the conciousness of the Iraqi population has been indoctrinated to believe the evils of the West (and for some evils the stories need not be so tall), that is not what concerns me. What concerns me is 'liberating' a country that, for whatever reason, hates this 'Free World' of ours and indeed wont be thanking us neither in the short run or the long run because whatever happens, I am certain that the we will not be concerned with its problems during the aftermath. Why? Because its happened far too many times before and it is STILL happening now. Too many times we have bombed and left the living to bury the dead relatives. Too many times we have left orphans in poverty only to grow up to be another Osama Bin Laden. Too many times, and we still don't learn.

The same stories keep being repeated, the same examples echoing down empty corridors, and why are they empty? Because no one is interested. I do not believe one word from either Bush or Blair that they will oversee the reconstruction of Iraq. Why? Because even if their intentions were noble and honest (which is, I truly believe, questionable - but lets not pay too much attention to my cynicism) their terms will soon be over with (it takes far longer than one presidential term to reconstruct a country) and they will be replaced by different politicians with different political agendas following different political trends. Politics, in its obsession with following both the dollar and the public's support - is much like fashion.

In a few months, at best, no one will give a dingo's kidney about Iraq. What has happened to Afghanistan? Our selective Media hardly provides us with the exposition or the interest we are supposed to have in a country that we have ravaged with war. What on EARTH is being done about the Palestinian/Israeli question? Yes, it is an ENDLESS bore but there is nothing more infuriating and frustrating than this absolute complacency we have to the horrors happening on both sides, hour after hour, day after day. But of course, there is no interest. None whatsoever.

So, forgive me, but this 'rebuilding' and 'reconstructing' is a myth. As we have seen before, in a long and tragic history of the West sodomizing the East and leaving it to despair, after the excitement of war, the reports from the war-stricken Iraq will become fewer and fewer, people will become more indifferent and eventually, when it is no longer in the politician's favour to pursue an active interest in Iraq, it will be put aside. Oh yes, every now and then contribute a few million here and there. When all along it is NOT simply money that rebuilds a nation, it is dedication and commitment, longer than a few months, or even years, I daresay.

But of course, no matter what a butcher Stalin was, there are still active Stalin supporters to this day. There is still a more than healthy population of Pinochet supporters to this day (which should sit well with the USA, since they helped install him). There is still a healthy population of Franco supporters to this day. And no, I do not mean the same 'healthy population' that support Hitler to this day, I mean a substantially higher number. I'm sorry if they've escaped people's notice, they have certainly troubled mine.

Ant.
 
Last edited:
Your concerns are valid, and, in all actuality, I share them with you. All of this does depend on what is inside the Bush Administration's minds when you pull away the media agitprop fed to us.

Nation building is certainly possible, as proven by the allied rebuilding of Germany and the U.S. rebuilding of Japan after World War II. This, of course, did not take a short time whatsoever; Japan took close to 10 years before the U.S. was able to leave completely. The question nowadays, of course, is whether there is interest in such rebuilding nowadays.

The solution, of course, is "re-education," which certainly evokes Orwellian imagery--and it should. Unfortunately, the reinvention of history is a hallmark of world history. It should only interest people that the "Renaissance" is a construction of 19th century romantic humanism--and likely never existed in such a wide and "organized" fashion as history texts portray.

So the dilemma is put forward. What is there to do? I don't have an answer...just thoughts.

Melon
 
Actually

I'm not going to argue about this topic. However, i do have to point out that the famous "celebration" video we all saw was in the streets of Pakistan, not the streets fo Baghdad. I remember that plainly and without a doubt. If there was any celebration in the streets of Baghdad, it was forced celebration. Hussein gets his soldiers to force things like this for film. But of course, they never show the soldiers standing there with guns pointing at the crowd.
 
80s,

I clearly remember seeing the celebration in Ramallah, where candy was being given out. I doubt it happened in just one country, in just one city. Wouldn't be surprised if it had happened in Baghdad either.
 
And to answer the original question "Will there be cheering and rejoicing in the streets?", yes, I think there will be, just as there was rejoicing in the streets when the allies recently liberated Afghanistan, and when the allies liberated France in WW2, and when the allies liberated the Jewish concentration camps (and if you don't think that was the case, you really should go hear a speech from a holocaust survivor). When a people are being oppressed, they would gladly risk their lives for a chance at freedom. Don't forget that the US has already dropped over a million leaflets telling the regular Army and civilians that if they don't want to fight us, we don't want to fight them, and instructions on how to be safe. The regular Iraqi Army (which is all but about 75,000 of the entire armed forces wants nothing to do with this war. They aren't just drafted. They are brutalized and threatened into joing up. Did ya'll read the story about the "training incident" of last week? British troops on the Kuwaiti side of the Iraq/Kuwaiti border were performing field exercises. Iraqi troops (the regular army) heard the gunfire and ran over to them and tried to surrender, without firing a single shot. The British commander said he hated having to tell them they had to go back. And this is nothing new...don't ya'll remember the scores and scores of Iraqi troops surrending in the gulf war without firing a shot? Many fo these actually thanked the Allies for letting them surrender. Now, what does that tell you about the Iraqi people? I'll tell you what it tells me - that they don't support Saddam at all.
 
80's,

Here is an article that supports your position:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...19.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/19/ixnewstop.html

In the desolate expanse of desert where Iraq and Jordan meet, the shabby concrete huts of the Trebeil border crossing provide countless opportunities for Saddam Hussein's officials to humiliate hapless travellers.

When I found myself making a quick exit from Iraq in the early hours of yesterday, less than 30 minutes before President George W Bush delivered his White House address and all but declared war, this stage of the journey was the one I dreaded most.

Portentous notices on Trebeil's grimy walls offer travellers an improbable array of instructions. One sign with a golden frame decrees in garbled English that all visitors must submit to an Aids test on entry and exit. The only exceptions are "friendly diplomats and children under 14".

Another notice in almost incomprehensible English forbids anyone from taking more than the equivalent of 1,000 Iraqi dinars - about 25 pence - in any currency across the border. Nearby, a portrait of Saddam shows him laughing uproariously.

But when I arrived at Trebeil, my fears vanished, for Saddam's weary border officials made no attempt to enforce his rules. Even the imminence of foreign invasion had not induced them to humiliate a citizen of an "aggressor" country.

With shrugs of indifference, the guards failed to force me to undergo an Aids test. Unusually, this favour did not even require a bribe. A dead-beat customs official waved through every bag untouched. He wore an expression of supreme weariness when we drove out of Saddam's crumbling domain and into the safety of neighbouring Jordan.

Sitting in Baghdad and watching Saddam's last days tick by, Iraq did not strike me as a ruthless dictatorship preparing for war with iron efficiency and determination. Instead, a demoralised population was fatigued beyond belief by 24 years of Saddam's tyranny, combined with endless war, isolation and sanctions.

Anyone who spends any time in Iraq knows that loathing for Saddam is almost universal among his people. No better proof can be found than the regime's official demonstrations. These are almost laughably devoid of passion, spontaneity or fervour.

Even in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, marshals from the ruling Ba'ath party drilled the demonstrators, telling them when to chant their leader's praises and when to wave their fists. After they had gone through the motions, the chants died away and Saddam's supposed followers dispersed gratefully.

In private, I have found that some Iraqis have been surprisingly willing to voice their true feelings. During the last six weeks in Baghdad I have often heard Iraqis describe Saddam as a "murderer" and an "evil man" who they "hate".

By contrast there is a complete absence of hostility towards Britons and Americans, who are invariably treated with great friendliness. In four visits to Iraq I have been threatened with violence only once - and that was by a British peace activist from Hay-on-Wye.

The Information Ministry in Baghdad provides a textbook case of the demoralisation and decay at the heart of the Iraqi state. Over the last few months this ministry has given up trying to control journalists, let alone sell Saddam to the international media.

It has long been incapable of organising press conferences. Instead, its demoralised officials have done nothing but fleece journalists of their employers' money. Saddam's third-rate spin doctors have even proved themselves largely unable to track what journalists in Baghdad write about Iraq, despite the advent of the internet.

With Saddam making his dispositions for war it comes as no surprise that the Information Ministry has been stripped of its responsibility for journalists. This ministry is the communications hub of the regime, making it a key target for air attack.

But its idea of preparing for war was to begin extensive renovation work three weeks ago, succeeding only in covering the entire building with dust and creating more brickwork for the cruise missiles to destroy.

When I took my leave of the Information Ministry on Monday I was compelled to part with the equivalent of ?5,000 for the privilege of an exit visa. To be fleeced is one thing. To be fleeced by an organisation that might well be pulverised within the week is quite another.

Suffocated by a regime that is both murderous and venal, Iraqis retain their humour and hospitality. It is difficult to think of another population that has shown such stoicism. Now they are grimly preparing for another ordeal. On the 600-mile overland journey from Baghdad to Amman, the Jordanian capital, signs of panic-buying were everywhere and the road was lined with petrol queues.

Amid the easy friendliness and the coded, elliptical remarks by which Iraqis convey their real opinions, I believe that they genuinely hope that the coming ordeal will, at last, bring down the curtain on their long nightmare.
Click to expand...
 
I remember Saddam coming out and offering his "condolences" for the victims of 9-11.

I think it was staged, for appearances sakes.

I remember the ppl in Jakarta celebrating and burning US Flags..

I hope ppl celebrate when the US forces arrive and I hope defectors immeadeately will show the US Troops where the WMDs are stashed, now w no threat of reprisals.:up:

I then will wait for all the lefties to apologize to our beloved President.:angry:

thank u
diamond
:)
 
diamond said:
I then will wait for all the lefties to apologize to our beloved President.:angry:
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, no matter the outcome in Iraq (WMD discovered and destroyed, Saddam removed from power, no civilians killed by US forces) or the elimination of terrorist cells, you will still see the :down: for GWB.
 
nbcrusader said:


Unfortunately, no matter the outcome in Iraq (WMD discovered and destroyed, Saddam removed from power, no civilians killed by US forces) or the elimination of terrorist cells, you will still see the :down: for GWB.
Click to expand...

and rightly so.
 
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31621

Baghdad welcomes 'moment of liberation'
Reporter in capital says newly emboldened people eager for war

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: March 20, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern



? 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

Newly emboldened Iraqis are revealing to the few reporters left in Baghdad that they see America's military action as their moment of liberation.

"Many, many Iraqis are telling us now ? not always in the whispers we only heard in the past, but now in quite candid conversations ? that they are waiting for America to come and bring them liberty," said New York Times reporter John Burns in an interview from Baghdad on the PBS News Hour last night.

"Along with all of this apprehension," said Burns, "Americans should know that there also is a good deal of anticipation. Iraqis have suffered beyond, I think, the common understanding in the United States from the repression of the past 30 years."

PBS's Gwen Ifill asked Burns to clarify: "They are actually eagerly anticipating war?"

"It's very hard for anybody to understand this," he said. "It can only be understood in terms of the depth of repression here."

Burns said that, of course, there are people who don't want war out of loyalty to the regime, or out of fear or out of "suspicion of America's motives." Because of the closed nature of Iraqi society, we cannot know how numerous either side is, he said.

"All I can tell you ? and every reporter who is here will attest this ? is that the most extraordinary experience of the last few days has been a sudden breaking of the ice here," said Burns, "with people from every corner of life coming forward to tell us that they understand what America is about in this."

Burns said the people naturally are fearful of errant bombing, damage to Iraq's infrastructure and what kind of government might come after Saddam is gone.

"Can I just say," Burns stated, after Ifill tried to interrupt, "there is absolutely no doubt, no doubt, that there are many, many Iraqis who see what is about to happen here as their moment of liberation."
Click to expand...
 
Yes: There IS cheering in the streets!

sorry, jsut realized this may constitute a "spinoff thread". See "Will there be cheering in the streets".
 
Last edited:
Here's the answer to the question:
'Saddam Is Done,' Marines Exult in Captured Town
Associated Press


Friday, March 21, 2003

SAWFAN, Iraq ? U.S. Marines hauled down giant street portraits of Saddam Hussein in a screeching pop of metal and bolts Friday, telling nervous residents of this southern Iraqi town that "Saddam is done."

Milling crowds of men and boys watched as the Marines attached ropes on the front of their Jeeps to one portrait and then backed up, peeling the Iraqi leader's black-and-white metal image off a frame. Some locals briefly joined Maj. David "Bull" Gurfein in a new cheer.

"Iraqis! Iraqis! Iraqis!" Gurfein yelled, pumping his fist in the air.

"We wanted to send a message that Saddam is done," said Gurfein, a New York native in the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. "People are scared to show a lot of emotion. That's why we wanted to show them this time we're here, and Saddam is done."

The Marines arrived in Safwan, just across the Kuwait border, after Cobra attack helicopters, attack jets, tanks, 155 mm howitzers and sharpshooters cleared the way along Route 80, the main road into Iraq.

Safwan, 375 miles south of Baghdad, is a poor, dirty, wrecked town pocked by shrapnel from the last Gulf war. Iraqi forces in the area sporadically fired mortars and guns for hours Thursday and Friday. Most townspeople hid, although residents brought forth a wounded little girl, her palm bleeding after the new fighting. Another man said his wife was shot in the leg by the Americans.

A few men and boys ventured out, putting makeshift white flags on their pickup trucks or waving white T-shirts out truck windows.

"Americans very good," Ali Khemy said. "Iraq wants to be free."

Some chanted, "Ameriki! Ameriki!"

Many others in the starving town just patted their stomachs and raised their hands, begging for food.

A man identifying himself only as Abdullah welcomed the arrival of the U.S. troops: "Saddam Hussein is no good. Saddam Hussein a butcher."

An old woman shrouded in black -- one of the very few women outside -- knelt toward the feet of Americans, embracing an American woman. A younger man with her pulled her away, giving her a warning sign by sliding his finger across his throat.

In 1991, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died after prematurely celebrating what they believed was their liberation from Saddam after the Gulf War. Some even pulled down a few pictures of Saddam then -- only to be killed by Iraqi forces.

Gurfein playfully traded pats with a disabled man and turned down a dinner invitation from townspeople.

"Friend, friend," he told them in Arabic learned in the first Gulf War.

"We stopped in Kuwait that time," he said. "We were all ready to come up there then, and we never did."

The townspeople seemed grateful this time.

"No Saddam Hussein!" one young man in headscarf told Gurfein. "Bush!"
 
Video shown earlier this morning - Iraqi residents in the southern port town cheered coalition troops as they tore down large murals of Saddam.
 
These are nice stories. I hope to see more smiling Iraqis soon. That's the way it should be. Yes, I'm definitely trying to keep an open mind about all of this. It's only fair.
 
A Iraqi town liberated, civilians dancing with joy!

Thank god the anit-war protesters didn't get their way. I just saw a news clip of a southern Iraq town that had just been liberated and the Iraqi people were very happy and smiling and dancing with joy! Now if this is going to be the type of thing we see million fold when Iraq is liberate, a grateful, happy population free from oppression then this makes it all worthwhile for me, I even had a lump in my throat as I watched!
 
Let's hope the next English words they learn are "lobster" or "steak" or "Cocoa Puffs." :)

Thanks to the troops who are representing America's best intentions so wonderfully.
 
Or chocolate.

From MSNBC:

"One little boy, who had chocolate melted all over his face after a soldier gave him some treats from his ration kit, kept pointing at the sky, saying ?Ameriki, Ameriki.? "
 
It may sound like we're already Americanizing Iraq, but I'm sure the Iraqis would want to eat anything since they're so hungry.
It's great to see images like these. Hope there would be more.
Perle
 
Last edited:
It was for this reason that I didn't "knee-jerk" into the far left anti-war opinion, because I believed that Iraq would welcome the demise of Saddam.

At the same time, though, I still think it was dreadfully deceptive and dishonest of Bush to use the UN as he did. It was very clear from the start that "disarmament" was the last thing on his mind, and that war was an inevitability. He wished to turn the UN into a rubber stamp, and the damage that has been done to international relations still makes me ill.

Indeed, I agree that the people of Iraq and most of the Middle East would likely enjoy "liberation." It is the methods and the legitimacy that kind of make me cringe...

Melon
 
melon said:


Indeed, I agree that the people of Iraq and most of the Middle East would likely enjoy "liberation." It is the methods and the legitimacy that kind of make me cringe...
Click to expand...

:yes:

I'm unbelievably happy to see images like this. I just hope things continue to improve after the war is over as well.
 
melon said:
It was for this reason that I didn't "knee-jerk" into the far left anti-war opinion, because I believed that Iraq would welcome the demise of Saddam.

At the same time, though, I still think it was dreadfully deceptive and dishonest of Bush to use the UN as he did. It was very clear from the start that "disarmament" was the last thing on his mind, and that war was an inevitability. He wished to turn the UN into a rubber stamp, and the damage that has been done to international relations still makes me ill.

Indeed, I agree that the people of Iraq and most of the Middle East would likely enjoy "liberation." It is the methods and the legitimacy that kind of make me cringe...

Melon
Click to expand...


Exactly. Same here. I've been trying to keep an open mind about all of this. I agree with you about the Iraqi people *and* the shenanigans at the UN and international relations. I just hope things are not too f:censored:d up after the war.
 
the UN displayed itself to be a dysfunctional group and afraid to enforce its own resolutions.

DB9
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
Hello there!
Replies
0
Views
250
skipdaly
S
Janet H
  • Sticky
Forum Update - We're back! Ask your questions here.
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
Popmartijn
Popmartijn
N
NBA 2023-24 Thread
13 14 15
Replies
443
Views
12K
Headache in a Suitcase
Headache in a Suitcase
M
Ticketmaster app
Replies
3
Views
528
rosephile
R
Headache in a Suitcase
  • Sticky
U2 in Vegas - Tips for booking hotels, flights and other Vegasy type things.
20 21 22
Replies
642
Views
33K
Headache in a Suitcase
Headache in a Suitcase

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom