I never give Steven Spielberg nearly as much credit as he deserves.

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
In fact, Lazarus, see below:

No spoken words said:
Top 10 Directors:

1. Martin Scorcese (Raging Bull)
2. Stanley Kubrick (A Clockwork Orange)
3. Michael Mann (Heat)
4. Steven Spielberg (Schindler's List)
5. Woody Allen (Manhattan)
6. James L. Brooks (Broadcast News)
7. Roman Polanski (Chinatown)
8. David Fincher (Tie - The Game/Zodiac)
9. Terry Gilliam - (Time Bandits)
10. Christopher Nolan (The Prestige)

Top 10 Actors:

1. Robert DeNiro (Raging Bull)
2. Jack Nicholson (Chinatown)
3. Clive Owen (Croupier)
4. Robert Duvall (G-dfather)
5. Al Pacino (G-dfather)
6. Daniel Day Lewis (Gangs of New York)
7. Ralph Fiennes (Schindler's List)
8. Sean Penn (Mystic River)
9. Kevin Kline (A Fish Called Wanda)
10. William Hurt (Broadcast News)

Top 10 Actresses:

1. Kate Winslet (Holy Smoke)
2. Meryl Streep (Sophie's Choice)
3. Holly Hunter (Broadcast News)
4. Susan Sarandon (Bull Durham)
5. Jessica Lange (Tootsie)
6. Michelle Pfeiffer (The Fabulous Baker Boys)
7. Rachel Weisz (The Constant Gardener)
8. Faye Dunaway (Network)
9. Diane Keaton (Annie Hall)
10. Jodie Foster (Silence of the Lambs)

That was difficult.

That's from another thread in here. That list of mine is just a subjective thing, of course...I'm no expert, and, that list could also be different if made on a different day. So, yeah, I love Spielberg but i recognize that there is better, or, I should say, work that I better enjoy.....but that does not diminish my enjoyment of Spielberg's work.
 
I totally disagree with Lazarus' statement regarding Speilberg making a grand connection without comprimise.

But this also connects with what I said about Spielberg being ignored by film snobs. I understand what you're saying about this films, but who's to say he's wrong? So he gives his films a happy ending. That's Spielberg. That's how he feels about cinema and his audience. He wants people to walk away feeling generally thrilled or happy after going to the theater. That's a rarely great gift these days. Very few people have such a strong gift to consistently create magical and uplifting films. We need Spielberg to be Spielberg.

On the other hand, we need Scorsese to be Scorsese. They are both fantastic film-makers, but they're also completely different. So yeah, Spielberg is not the most qualitatively "great" director around, but he has been able to do something that almost nobody else has been able to do in the business.
 
I re-watched A.I. last night and it's really jumped up on my list of favorite Spielberg flicks, even though it's partly Kubrick.

My Top 10 of Spielberg:
1. Schindler's List
2. Raiders of the Lost Ark
3. Jaws
4. Close Encounters of the Third Kind
5. E.T.: The Extra Terrestrial
6. Jurassic Park
7. A.I.: Artificial Intelligence
8. Munich
9. Saving Private Ryan
10. Minority Report

I still need to see Amistad, The Color Purple, and Empire of the Sun.

About Scorcese, I don't think I've seen one of his films all of the way through yet. Yes, I phail at movie snobdom, I'll torrent them sometime so Mama LMP doesn't see. (she's a prude when it comes to movies, you see.)
 
Spiffy list LMP. But you should see and list Poltergiest if you haven't seen it yet. It's actually more of a Spielberg film than A.I, even though he's not attached as director.

As for Scorsese:

1. Casino
2. Taxi Driver
3. Raging Bull
4. Goodfellas
5. Gangs of New York
6. The Aviator
7. The Departed
...
...
...
8. Cape Fear

Personally, of the ones I've seen.
 
Thanks, I haven't seen Poltergeist in years, but I remember liking it. The face-ripping scene always creeped me out. The shitty sequels are always on TV, which are impossible not to sit and watch and laugh.

Funny thing about Cape Fear:

'Steven Spielberg' was originally set to direct. He later recommended Martin Scorsese for the job and personally called the director, letting him know that this was a commercial film that had potential to be a hit, which would exercise more power for Scorcese to make his films.

:hmm:
 
Last edited:
To be fair, SPR and AI were marginally happy/hopeful endings. I mean, they're still tear-jokers, but yeah... And Munich wasn't a sad ending per-se either. Not happy though either I guess.
 
How ? Everyone died except PR (and that chicken Upham, and the guy most pissed about the whole mission), the robot boy only got one single day with his mom, and Munich left the main hero a broken man.
 
The whole point of the epilogue in SPR was to show how the sacrifice of the men allowed for not only our free country (note the hefty flag-waving at the end) but also that Ryan was given the chance to grow old and raise a fuitful family of his own. How is that not a hopeful ending? Imagine if he has ended the film with Hanks saying "earn it." That would have been a depressing ending.

Same thing goes for A.I. After finding the blue fairy, he could have ended trapped under the sea for all eternity. But instead, David got the chance to return home, and spend a day with his mother again, to be loved. That was his goal all along. It's definitely a sad film, but it ends on a hopeful phrase as well.

As for Munich, I'd need to see it again anyway, but I know I didn't walk away from the film feeling "Oh, how sad". It was just a damn good movie.
 
I felt that was a bit over patriotic with the flag, now what you mention it.
It is hopeful for Ryan but what about Miller's team ? To me a proper happy end would be more - obviously not everyone will survive a war - of Miller's men surviving, most of all Miller himself, to see Ryan "earn it". Consider the "was I a good man?" self-doubt question to Ryan's wife.

He did get a day with his mother, but that's it. He will spend many, many years alone as a robot.
 
lazarus said:


For record, I greatly enjoyed about 4/5 of A.I., which I think contains his greatest filmmaking, and have a soft spot for Always & Catch Me If You Can. His only unqualified masterpieces in my opinion are Jaws and Close Encounters.

I agree about A.I.

I'd say 3/4 of it is a better film than SPR or Schindler and in fact his best work...for that 75% (or whatever the figure would be).
But if you include the flaws, then you'd have to move it further down his list. I think in many ways A.I. sums up Spielberg and his ability to be masterful and problematic at the same time.

I think there is a happy median in between the popcorn gushing money machine and the faux brow snobbery. I think it resides somewhere in league with what lazarus said.

He always seems to go for the easy swelling strings moment, his characters are often very thin and he doesn't seem to trust that his audience will be smart enough to find something and ends up painting it out in large right on the screen.

He's got the disease U2 has adopted in the last several years.
A complete dearth of subtlety. Maybe that's why I liked so much of A.I. and even Munich to a lesser extent, he seemed to be trusting his audience more than he did in the past.

I'm no Spielberg basher, in fact I think he's a bit underappreciated within semi-serious and certainly serious discussions abut popular film. He's actually one of my favorite directors, I just think he takes the easy route a bit too often.

That said, nobody is better at making a film like Jaws or Raiders.
And I TOTALLY agree about Schindler's List, the breakdown of Oscar Schindler, that was easily the worst part of that movie and totally unnatural, it's almost as if he said to himself "I'm gonna see if I can get one last tear-jerk" in here. The material itself gives a heavy emotional weight, the acting and storytelling were masterful and then, here comes the token sappy moment....

He couldn't just let it breathe.
Sort of like U2 these days in the final months of an album.
I still hold them both in high regard, maybe even to a standard that is unfair.
 
Lancemc said:

Same thing goes for A.I. After finding the blue fairy, he could have ended trapped under the sea for all eternity. But instead, David got the chance to return home, and spend a day with his mother again, to be loved. That was his goal all along. It's definitely a sad film, but it ends on a hopeful phrase as well.

And it should be noted that this was Kubrick's ending and as stated before, he wasn't taken by aliens but machines, which you can only blame Spielberg for not making the machines look more mechanical(?), I guess would be the correct term.

Spielberg took a lot of shit for the ending, many critics saying he wrecked Kubrick's movie, when in fact he was very respectful of Kubrick's vision and that was Kubrick's ending as well.

I think it's fairly close to being a masterpiece.
If Kubrick had made the film it may have been a masterpiece, then again he may have sucked a lot of life out of it, Kubrick gave the project to SS because he said it fit his sentiment. So, I think Kubrick knew that SS could make the audience feel for the robot.

The great gap of the film for myself was losing the fact that he was a robot. I forgot he was a robot in many respects and I'm not really sure if that was the intention or not. It made it very emotional, in fact I had tears in my eyes at the end but I feel like there was a larger question being asked or to be answered, if we could make artificial intelligence have feelings, what does that say about the importance of humankind or emotion itself?

Obviously more intelligent people could frame the big questions better than myself, I just felt like the potential for something really poignant was right there and I'm not sure it delivered. I guess I could say I'm not sure if my conditional praise is validated or not.

So is that indicative of Spielberg? Maybe years later I feel like he could do X, Y and Z but I walked away really pleased at the time and even to this day recommend the movie.

Oh well, I'm not well versed enough in the art of film to dissect it down, I just know that this movie didn't deserve all the bashing it received.
 
Last edited:
I loved AI...

I agree the ending was not the greatest, I really feel it should have ended with him finding the blue fairy but whatever...

I found the ideas involved very disturbing, it raises a lot of moral questions for the future that both interests and terrifies me at the same time...
 
Last edited:
Just for the record, I know full well that the ending of A.I. was Kubricks original design.
 
Although I think the film would have been better ending with David at the bottom of the ocean, it's not a question of whose idea the epliogue was, it's the hamfisted way in which Spielberg does it. The mecca sitting down on the fucking bed and just spewing out exposition is groan-inducing, and I swear to you when I saw the film the weekend it came out the audience was vocally annoyed by the scene.

Which goes back to the main argument--it's not about happy endings vs. sad (or realistic) endings, it's how you do them. As pointed out by Inner El Guapo, Spielberg lacks the ability (or resolve) to be subtle, and as as I've said before, when you're afraid to challenge the audience, question their beliefs (as well as your own), or risk offending them, you're commiting a cinematic crime every time you make a film.
 
corianderstem said:
Munich was AMAZING.

I enjoyed MInority Report more than I was expecting, considering I don't care much for either Tom Cruise or Colin Farrell.
Ditto. I find Spielberg very hit and miss.
I've never liked ET or Close Encounters and didn't like the action mess of War of the Worlds. He seems to gravitate toward commerical fluff a bit too often.
I thought Catch Me If You Can could have been more dramatically powerful instead of mostly light-hearted, and I just don't get why he allows Michael Bay to do anything under his production company. Temple of Doom was pretty bad.

I also dislike the cheesy, phony, superficial idea of what childhood is like in his films, like Goonies. Growing up, I would sometimes think I was supposed to be like those kids -- spunky, but not especially bright, always getting into mischeif, with a girlfriend on one arm and a gameboy or something in the other. Total annoying notion of what kids are like.

Other than those problems, I really enjoyed Munich for giving some context and understanding to Palestinians' actions -- although most in the American media totally missed it. And I also really enjoyed Minority Report.

One of my most treasured memories of amazement in the cinema was seeing Jurasic Park in 1993. It was unbelievable special effects wise because I used to love dinosaurs as a kid and it was so incredible to see -- even if the plot was weak.

Just a plug: Joel Gretsch was in Minority Report and he stars in the politically-insightful 4400.
 
Last edited:
lazarus said:
Which goes back to the main argument--it's not about happy endings vs. sad (or realistic) endings, it's how you do them. As pointed out by Inner El Guapo, Spielberg lacks the ability (or resolve) to be subtle, and as as I've said before, when you're afraid to challenge the audience, question their beliefs (as well as your own), or risk offending them, you're commiting a cinematic crime every time you make a film.

Is Uwe Boll in solitary confinement of Cinematic Prison?
 
[q]S.S.'s style may be sophisticated, but thematically he's still an immature boy who wants love from his daddy, and therefore will never be an artists on the level of the true cinema greats, regardless of how many Oscars he wins or tickets he sells.
[/q]


see, this is where i stop taking criticism about him seriously. i appreciate your other comments, but so much that's leveled at Spielberg -- calling him "Unka Stevie" or whatever -- seems so personal in nature. yes, his films are filled with lost boys, but could we not also call this thematic consistency? i can't think of a more searing portrait of divorce than the small scene in that massive blockbuster E.T. where Elliot says the simple words, "I can't, he's in Mexico with Sally." to me, that single line, over the dinner table with the single mom, the quick portrait of a broken family, is as memorable and emotionally impactful as any film i've ever seen that's dealt with divorce.

(and on that topic -- E.T. is about suburban transcendentalism, and it's almost overtly Christian with E.T. as a Christ-figure, resurrected and through faith the bicycles fly. there is indeed more than meets the eye with many Spielberg films, just not always)

and i'll maintain that Spielberg is as versatile as Scorecese or Wells or Kubrick (and, my goodness, what company to be compared to, an embarassment of riches, and the vaunting of one isn't meant to degrade the other). i'd also maintain that the battle scenes of SPR are much more than shaky cameras and blood on the lense. what Spielberg does is give you utterly coherent chaos, and as a professor of mine -- who doesn't like Spielberg much -- once said about those scenes is how brilliantly they depict the randomness of the ferocity of combat, and the ferocity of the randomness. those scenes are masterful, and while i haven't seen the Wells film (and i'd now like to), they are as innovative and immitated as anything from the past 10 years. his films are far more than pretty pictures, and i think SPR, despite my complaints, might be the film that has most "advanced" cinema more than any other over the past 10 years. and i also can't agree with your assessment of "Schindler's List." but that's too much to get into here.

ultimately, all these men do different things. they have different goals, and i think much of the criticism has to do with personal taste as opposed to independent aesthetic judgements. and that's perfectly fine. if anything, i find the adoration of Scorcese and the degradation of Spielberg by the intelligentsia quite off putting. Raging Bull, for all its brilliance, is almost unbearable to watch. is this a good thing or a bad thing? and "Gangs of New York" was pretty shitty, imho, with "Catch Me If You Can" the better film of Christmas 2002. simpler, less ambitious, more fun, happy ending, all true, but uplifting art isn't necessarily dumb, and that happy endings aren't always a cop out. life isn't always a despairing slog through the shit of human existence (nor does it need a warm Spielberg ending either, admittedly).

i suppose my big point is kind of a Bonoism. it's easy to despair, it's easy to show the awfulness of man to his fellow man, it's easy to chronical a psychopath. it's quite hard to pull off joy, and i think the educated among us -- and i count myself in this group -- are suspicious of things that don't hurt, that aren't "challenging" in an expected manner.

and to swing a bit farther ... and to touch on some Camille Paglia ... so much of the problem, i find, with "today's" art is that it is so, so, so painfully self-conscious, created as if someone is trying to be nothing more than impervious to academic criticism. there's no attempt to elevate, to engage, to uplift, to find optimism and humor, because these things have been labled "easy" or "dumb" or "degraded" or, worse, "pop" by the intellgentsia.

so ... yeah, don't know how coherent this is going to be, it's such a massive subject and one that i haven't engaged with on an intellectual level since being an undergrad. but it's fascinating, and all points are well taken.
 
Last edited:
Hey, even Robert Zemeckis has made a good career as a Spielberg-esque style director.
 
LemonMacPhisto said:
Hey, even Robert Zemeckis has made a good career as a Spielberg-esque style director.

Such a shame that The Polar Express makes me puke, and Beowulf looks no better.
 
He did direct my favorite movie of all-time though, Back to the Future, but I accredit that mainly to the cast, writing, and production (coincidentally, Steven Spielberg).
 
My favorite Zemeckis film is still Who Framed Roger Rabit. Cutting edge in every sense, and truly wonderful. :up:
 
:lol:

But as a matter of fact, no, I didn't see it in 3-D. I'm sure that would have at least made the film mildly intersting in that case. Too bad it's still a garbage movie.
 
Lance, you're such a sourpuss. Next you're going to tell me that you don't believe in Santa Clause at all.

Feel the magic, man, feel the magic.

(Which is all together different than "Feel the magic man" - that could get you arrested ... or a job ...)
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom