martha
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You just contradicted yourself! If Christians can go to Hell for their conduct, yet murderers can go to Heaven, what's going on?
How good do you think you have to be to get into heaven?
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What I find funny is that Catholics accept non-Christians can get be saved. And Catholics comprise the CLEAR majority of Christians, outnumbering Protestants by a margin of MORE than 2:1.
Yet it's fundamentalist evangelicals which have hijacked Christianity for themselves and act as if though they are representative of the religion. Not only are they not, but they are a minority.
Yet it's fundamentalist evangelicals which have hijacked Christianity for themselves and act as if though they are representative of the religion. Not only are they not, but they are a minority.
Liesje
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martha said:
how's that a contradiction? if you don't accept God's grace for salvation, even if you are a Christian, you can go to Hell. If you killed someone and repent for years and come to except God's grace, you can go to Heaven. It's not a contradiction b/c like I said before the ONLY way to salvation is accepting Jesus and His grace.
nbcrusader said:
yes, by God's GRACE we gain access to the Kingdom. And again this does not say there is no other way. Who are we as the created to determine or limit God's Grace by saying there is only one way. It does not say that God's Grace is not extended to others, on the contrary, God's Grace was limited by the twisted LAW....
Verse 10:
[Q]10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/Q]
So clearly God expects and intends for the Creation, US, to do good works. Grace does not exclude us from doing works.
Liesje
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Dreadsox said:
no, it doesn not, but in order for the Grace to save, you have to accept it. Doing good works and accepting Grace into your heart are very different.
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:
Again, minority view.
I think it's important to point that out to people like martha, because the MAJORITY of Christians actually believes she will find salvation.
It's the minority that's the loudest, it would seem.
Screaming Flower
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LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:
You are assuming that the Holy Spirit, or grace or whatever you choose to call it is not present in the hearts of Non-Christians.
Taking passages out of the entire text to make a point is ihncredibly wrong.
intedomine
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
the closest thing to heaven is earth and the time you spend alive on earth......
people should stop fantasising about an afterlife and live for the moment, it will do you good........
if you still had feelings or thoughts after you died, youd be pretty disappointed to find out that there is no heaven or hell, just the end of the road.....
These bloody religions, brainwashing people that they are gonna have an afterlife, poor buggers....they don't know what they are missing...
'Heaven' only exists during a lifetime, during the period where you can make a moment memorable, so make it happen, here on earth....
people should stop fantasising about an afterlife and live for the moment, it will do you good........
if you still had feelings or thoughts after you died, youd be pretty disappointed to find out that there is no heaven or hell, just the end of the road.....
These bloody religions, brainwashing people that they are gonna have an afterlife, poor buggers....they don't know what they are missing...
'Heaven' only exists during a lifetime, during the period where you can make a moment memorable, so make it happen, here on earth....
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martha
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You guys are making my head spin. Dinner and a walk with my dog will help.
martha
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But don't Calvinists believe in an elect?
Liesje
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martha said:
true Calvinist, yes. I do not. I believe ANYONE can go to Heaven.
Liesje
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anitram said:
OK, I have a minority view, big deal. I'm only the loudest b/c someone asked for a distinction between Catholicism and Protestantism and I gave it. "Minority" is reletive anyway. Where I come from, Protestantism is the vast majority, but it doesn't change how I feel about salvation one way or the other. I don't care if the majority is Catholic. Anyone can believe whatever they choose to believe no matter how many other people do or do not believe it.
Screaming Flower
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just an fyi - today on interference.com, eternity and hell are celebrating birthdays. coincidence? i think not. 
bonosloveslave said:
Again,,,I despise taking a verse or two out of context of the book.
What is Jesus responding to in his comments? He was reassuring his disciples in the passage that they would be fine.
What you are quoting does not change what I believe......
Jesus is the way in my belief. He died for the sins of everyone, NOT JUST CHRISTIANS. That makes him the WAY. He is the truth, in that he came to free mankind from the LAW which was twisted and limited Jews from receiving the GRACE of GOD. Over and over he defies the Temple leaders, demonstrating how TWISTED the Law was. He is the life because he is the BOUNCER at the door. He decides who gets in, and by HIS Grace we enter into our Father's house. So Jesus is saying....You cannot get into the father's house, except through me.
He never says my GRACE will be denied...
The entire passage is a passage in which he is reassuring his disciples and specifically doubting Thomas....who asks how will they know the way?
I can prove many things by taking a line from the Bible....
EPandAmerica
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BVS
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Dreadsox said:
Thank you Dread.
BVS
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Let me just quote one of my favorite sailors;
"if it wasn't for the good souls life would not matter."
"if it wasn't for the good souls life would not matter."
Kieran McConville
ONE love, blood, life
Yeah I'm sorry I opened such a can of worms by bringing up the old faith vs. works thing. Alas it does exist, and as one can see, not all Christians believe the same things, not at all.
Maybe the real answer is that you have to be good enough to recognise good when you finally get to it - ie. heaven.
This would suggest that a Hitler will never see heaven not because some God cast him down to hell with Satan, but that he put himself there because his twisted soul would recoil from the goodness that is alien to anything he understands.
Hitler is an awfully extreme example though, cause he really was evil. He was a nihilist in the purest sense.
This thread might be better applied to the merely mediocre - ie. most of us.
Maybe the real answer is that you have to be good enough to recognise good when you finally get to it - ie. heaven.
This would suggest that a Hitler will never see heaven not because some God cast him down to hell with Satan, but that he put himself there because his twisted soul would recoil from the goodness that is alien to anything he understands.
Hitler is an awfully extreme example though, cause he really was evil. He was a nihilist in the purest sense.
This thread might be better applied to the merely mediocre - ie. most of us.
nbcrusader
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martha said:
There is essentially only one sin that will "send you to hell" - the rejection of Jesus Christ as Savior.
nbcrusader
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anitram said:
Funny, but God didn't say having more people on your side will get you to heaven.
nbcrusader
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Dreadsox said:
Of course God does not exclude us from doing works. But it is contrary to Scripture to say that works will earn your Salvation.
If there is another way, God has not revealed it to us. So the question becomes, do we follow what God has revealed or do we base this on something else?
Kieran McConville
ONE love, blood, life
Question answered, then. Hope that helps you, Martha.
nbcrusader
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Dreadsox said:
No one is saying He can't or won't. The issue is, "what is your source of Truth?"
babble
The Fly
How good do you have to be to get to heaven?
As a Christian, I believe that "getting to heaven" is a combination of works and grace.
In numerous scriptures we are told that it is by the grace of Christ we are saved through faith in Him.
Yet, to believe that all you have to do is confess Christ as your Savior and how you conduct your life thereafter has no bearing on your salvation would be to utterly ignore what James spoke of:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?......Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ----James 2:14 & 17.
To put it simply, I believe that we are expected to live the best we can according to our knowledge of the commandments, and when we mess up, excercise our faith in Christ and His Atonement by quickly humbling ourselves and repenting (this is where the grace part comes in, for we could never repent and be forgiven of our sins if it were not for Christ's atonement). To me, being "saved" is not a one-time thing. It is a continuous, life-long process of good works, faith and repentance.
As a Christian, I believe that "getting to heaven" is a combination of works and grace.
In numerous scriptures we are told that it is by the grace of Christ we are saved through faith in Him.
Yet, to believe that all you have to do is confess Christ as your Savior and how you conduct your life thereafter has no bearing on your salvation would be to utterly ignore what James spoke of:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?......Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ----James 2:14 & 17.
To put it simply, I believe that we are expected to live the best we can according to our knowledge of the commandments, and when we mess up, excercise our faith in Christ and His Atonement by quickly humbling ourselves and repenting (this is where the grace part comes in, for we could never repent and be forgiven of our sins if it were not for Christ's atonement). To me, being "saved" is not a one-time thing. It is a continuous, life-long process of good works, faith and repentance.
Kieran McConville
ONE love, blood, life
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:
Actually, 'works' means how you live your life. Simple as that.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, by all means.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
martha said:
Think of it this way. God's grace can cover anything. To suggest that there is some type of conduct that God cannot forgive is a limitation on an all-powerful, loving God.
OP
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Peace to all for the night - I need to get at least a smidge of beauty rest for tomorrow
nbcrusader
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Dreadsox said:
Well, of course Jesus died for everyone. Not everyone accepts the gift of grace, however. Not everone make Jesus their Lord and Savior. Rejection of Jesus = no grace.
Dreadsox said:
God gave the Hebrews the Law because they would not live by faith - they wanted rules and regulations.
The twisting of the Law occured when the Pharasees began to enforce their own traditions on an equal or higher level than the Law - largely to maintain the power they had over the people.
Jesus says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17
Dreadsox said:
Agreed. Let's compare Scripture with Scripture:
Acts 4:11-12 - "He is 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.' Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Acts 16:30-31 - He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
Matthew 7:13-14 - Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
I could go on.....
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