History made as gay couple marries in Toronto

[U2Fan101]

U2fan101, I'm not here to cast judgement upon your father or minister, but maybe you should rethink about any judgement that had to be "beaten" into your head. I'm sure they never had to "beat" the idea into your head that murder or stealing is wrong.

I just want someone to explain to me why they think it's wrong. What reason? I'm curious and would like a real explanation.

BonoVox...I can't possibly give you a reason as to why I think it's wrong other then it's what I was taught. You are right on that. I can't back up why I think this other than 10 years ago, I was a raging homophobe...I hated homosexual's...I was a bastard to them. Then I went to highschool and it opened my 'acceptance' door. I think I have come a long way from what I was to where I am now, frankly. Now I have many friends, both male and female who are attracted to the same sex.

I will say, it's ironic, that men, myself including, are more OK with the fact of two females dating or whatever, than two men. And ya know, this I can't explain why either.

All of you are very right in what you are saying. It has been something I have struggled with for years and I am gradually finally breaking out of my childhood molding from my parents and minister. I don't agree with it. I accept it, but I don't agree with it. I really can't give a reason as to why. I know that is not acceptable, but considering the circumstances of my childhood, that's acceptable to me. As a child you never question what your minister or parents said. What they said, is, and that's all there is to it.

I know with gay/lesbians or gay/lesbian's supporters, I am considered evil, because I think it's wrong. And I also know that hard-core Christians don't think I am a true Christian because I accept homosexuality and I have numerous friends who are gay/lesbian.

On one hand I accept it. On the other, I think it's wrong. Why? I can't answer that. I'm sorry.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Okay, one thing some of you have to stop doing is putting words in the mouths of people who disagree with you.

People who thing that homosexuality is wrong don't necessarily hate or even dislike homosexuals. Where anyone got the idea that to love someone you have to condone everything he/she does is absolutely beyond me. I have close friends who see things I do that they don't like, but they love me anyway. Just because I think homsexual relations are wrong does not mean that I dislike homosexuals. So stop it, please, don't even go there anymore.

As for the discussion of "laws" in the Old Testament, please be aware that some laws were made by the priests and some were made by God. Also, it is incorrect to say that Jesus "did away with" the old laws. He didn't do away with them, he "fulfilled them"...big difference. And homosexuality isn't just forbidden in the Old Testament, it's also in the New.

And my point here is not to argue if it's right or wrong. I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions that were stated here.

 

[beegee]

How is two people of the same sex loving each other harming anyone?

some of my personal experiences would make it very easy to answer this question.

 

[80sU2isBest]

men, myself including, are more OK with the fact of two females dating or whatever, than two men. And ya know, this I can't explain why either.

I'm not more okay with it.

But then again, I don't think it's any more of a sin than straights having sex with people they're not married to. Years and years ago, I had sex and I wasn't married, and that was wrong. I have been forgiven for it, so I carry on, and don't do that anymore.

 

[BVS]

some of my personal experiences would make it very easy to answer this question.

But I'm sure the same things could be said about straight people as well. Try not to use your personal experiences determine what you think for a whole group of people.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Dont some people choose to be Gay as well?
Genectic predispostion may be a factor as in alcolhoism sure, granted.
Some may have a predisposition, to be Gay but not born "Gay".

Still others are only "bi-curious". So I suppose they are only flirting the Gay lifestyle perhaps, the same way somebody is "flirting" about consuming alcohol for the first time.

I dont know.
I just dont.

I will let the fellow at the big table in the next life make the call as he knows each one of his children's hearts minds and souls..if he is indeed a fellow.

Atticus.

 

[Angela Harlem]

While its a natural progression to move onto homosexuality itself from an original topic like this, please keep it back on the subject of homosexual marriage. This sidetrack has a tendancy to get out of control from here on in.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

I think there needs to be a distinction addressed here: Some people consider a "gay" person to be someone who performs homosexual acts -- that is, someone who makes the choice to kiss, hold hands, have sex or date or have a relationship, etc, with a member of the same sex. Now, some people also say if a person is simply attracted to members of the same sex, then that person is also considered gay. As we can see, in the latter case there is no choice involved. I never woke up one day, walked down the street and, as a really hot girl passed by, said to myself, "My, I am going to choose to find her really attractive," and then went ahead and told myself how attractive she was. It's an instinctual reaction. It happens in the moment. Now, to me, it's exactly the same for a homosexual person. It's a *natural*, instincutual attraction. And many say this is wrong because they choose this??? That's where the choice argument completely breaks down.

Secondly, if it was completely a matter of choice, who in their right mind would choose to be discriminated against in every level of society...when it comes to career; when it comes to personal safety; when it comes to being treated with the simple respect heterosexual people take for granted. Why would anyone choose to live without these basic human rights? Why would anyone choose to not be treated equally? This is also where the choice argument breaks down.

I think the best way of describing it is this: think back to when you first started feeling something toward the opposite sex. Sometimes this happenes when you are very little, as young as 6 or 7 even. Remember those feelings? Now imagine those exact same feelings at that young age, but instead of feeling them toward the opposite sex, it's the same sex. That's the way it is, in most cases. So where's the choice in that? It sounds pretty "natural" to me.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Michael, good points you make there. I think distinctiosn do indeed to be made. To clear things up from my view, I am opposed to homsexual sexual relationships and the things that go with it; kissing, etc.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Ah, but now you raise another interesting point, 80sU2isBest: Should we expect a gay person (who has the natural feelings toward the opposite sex as per just described) to live a life of complete celibacy--actually, to go further from that, and avoid all romanticism at all--simply because they were born a certain way? Isn't that rather selfish on our part? Afterall, it is us who have the issue with them dating members of the same sex, not them, since they would gladly date members of the same sex. But here we are asking them to cut all those inclinations off and live their entire lives alone without romance or any life partner whatsoever simply to meet our agenda. In my opinion, that would be very wrong of us.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Honestly, I think that sex is proper in only one relationship: heterosexual marriage. Therefore, I would want people with gay felings to absatin from sex, just like I would want straight people who aren't in a marriage relationship to abstain from sex. Would I want people to be punished by the law for having sex? Not if it doesn't violate decency laws (sex in public).

 

[Basstrap]

I would like for you to support what you are saying biblically, and outside the old testement please

I realize there are mentions of it in the new, but none are explicitly condemning. What about slavery? that is not condemned in the bible...indeed, if anything it is condoned

it's a good thing we strayed from that

 

[Basstrap]

even the old testement verse in leviticus, if properly translated, only means it is not right for a man to lie with another man in a womans bed because it is ritually unclean

 

[Michael Griffiths]

80sU2isBest:

A few points just to make your position clear:

1. You believe sex is only "right" in a heterosexual marriage.

2. Gay people are not heterosexual.

3. Therefore, gay people cannot have a heterosexual marriage.

Subsidiary point:

1. You believe the acts of kissing, holding hands, having any kind romantic/sexual relations with a member of the same sex is "wrong".

Overall Conclusion: Therefore, a gay person cannot ever have sex OR have any kind of romantic/sexual relations in their entire life without living in sin, despite being born that way, and as such they should live a life of complete celibacy no matter what.

Just wanted to clarify.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I'm not sure that gays are born gay.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

But can you be sure that they're not? And which side is better to err upon?

 

[Michael Griffiths]

80sU2isBest: I apologize if my above post seemed harsh in tone, but I wanted to streamline your argument. I think I did that correctly, and if you disagree with it, let me know.

Anyway, you now bring up the crux of the issue, I think. There are many studies done on this, and I'm sure it's not the same for each case, but from the friends I've met who are gay and from the people I've heard about, in most cases the person in question claims they have always felt that way, ever since they can remember. And given the social/societal downside of being gay, I would tend to go with that. Even though that's just my opinion, I believe it to be a strong one, based on many factors.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I would like for you to support what you are saying biblically, and outside the old testement please
I realize there are mentions of it in the new, but none are explicitly condemning. What about slavery? that is not condemned in the bible...indeed, if anything it is condoned
it's a good thing we strayed from that

Slavery was most certainly not condoned in the Bible. There are two types of servanthood...a slave and a bondervant ( a free person who chose to be a servant)

I have three New Testament passages about homosexuality in mind. But this should not be a thread about that. I entered the discussion to basically say that just because some people think homosexuality is wrong, that doesn't mean we hate or fear homosexuals.

 

[Basstrap]

fair enough

just know that I know what verses you are talking about and they can be argued both ways. I think it comes down to a matter of interpretation

conservative christians such as yourself see things in a much different way than liberal christians such as myself.

and I agree with the crux of your statement
I believe it is possible you don't hate, fear, or despise homosexuals.

 

[80sU2isBest]

80sU2isBest: I apologize if my above post seemed harsh in tone, but I wanted to streamline your argument. I think I did that correctly, and if you disagree with it, let me know.

Michael, your post didn't seem harsh to me at all. You and I have had harsh disagreements, but this wasn't one.

But yes, I guess I would have to say that in practice I'd have to agree with your assessment of my opinion. It may not fit everyone's idea of tolerance, but if I think that homosexual sex is wrong, I have to be consistent.

 

[80sU2isBest]

and I agree with the crux of your statement
I believe it is possible you don't hate, fear, or despise homosexuals.

Thanks very much, because it is true.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I'm not sure that gays are born gay.

This is my view as well.
There is also Romans Chapter 9 to contend with.
I think that is the New Testament and the Apostle Paul wrote it.

Atticus.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

This is my view as well.
There is also Romans Chapter 9 to contend with.
I think that is the New Testament and the Apostle Paul wrote it.

Atticus.

So you concede that your argument rests on a "maybe"?

As I've said, I've seen great evidence to the contrary and none that states it's never that way (from birth), so I'll continue going with the stronger case.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Now, that being said, I do wonder why homosexuality has become the "whipping sin" of choice for "religious" people. I don't know why so many people who claim to be Christian hate and beat up homosexuals. Is that how we win people to Christ? No. Is that what Jesus would do? No. In my opinion, the people Christians should be beating up are those jerks who cheat on their wives. Just kidding....maybe...

 

[nbcrusader]

Now, that being said, I do wonder why homosexuality has become the "whipping sin" of choice for "religious" people.

It is an ugly way to deflect attention from their own sin. Sin does not have a hierarchy (possible exception for apostasy). Standing before a Holy God is not a time for relativism.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Please pardon my language, but as long as I live I will never forget those so called "Christians" standing outside the trial of the monsters who killed Matthew Shepard w/ signs that said "God hates fags".

In my humble opinion, if God would EVER hate anyone, it would be people like that - the people who would stand there, in front of his parents no less, and hold signs like that. That is a small minority of Christians, who certainly don't represent true Christianity.

 

[80sU2isBest]

MrsSpringsteen, I personally don't see how people who call themselves Christians can act like that. It's a disgrace and a sin against God.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I personally don't see how people who call themselves Christians can act like that. It's a disgrace and a sin against God.

I couldn't agree w/ you more. It just upsets me that some people might have an impression of Christians that is based upon the actions of people like that, and I use the term people very loosely.

I can't even consider people like that human

The media gives attention to those people, but when do they ever let the views of other Christians be heard?

 

[80sU2isBest]

The media is looking for a "good" story with plenty of conflict.

 

[melon]

homophobia...blah blah..

Look, you can't necessarily label people who think homosexuality is wrong as being "homophobic". Phobia means "fear". I'm sure some people are afraid of homosexuality, but many of us just think that it's wrong.

I think getting drunk is a sin...does that make me an "alcophobe"? I think adultery is wrong...does that make me an "adultephobe"?

I think the South is a sin. Does that make me a Confederaphobe?

Melon