Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
melon said:
[being coy]
and appropriately provocative.
no one is born religious! it's a choice! no special treatment for religious organizations! it's unnatural to be religious!
[also being coy]
melon said:
[being coy]
Angela Harlem said:1. What if it IS actually ok? And they are right or not, in your opinion?
2. I thought you had no personal problem with gay people getting married anyway
3. Is it possible that denial of such civil equality could cause emotional and mental problems?
nathan1977 said:I think we need to consider our definitions.
How do we define "equality"?
How do we define "rights"?
Is marriage really the ultimate barometer of human rights? If so, why?
nathan1977 said:I think we need to consider our definitions.
How do we define "equality"?
How do we define "rights"?
Is marriage really the ultimate barometer of human rights? If so, why?
nathan1977 said:
Significant symbols for inequality would seem to be:
- government-sponsored ghettoization (consider the number of Japanese rounded up into internment camps during WWII)
- hate-crimes (compare the numbers of hate crimes committed per year against gay people v. people of an ethnic minority -- particularly Arabs in this country)
- economic disparity (compare the average income of a gay man to that of an African-American/Hispanic-American/Asian American)
- disparity of access to goods and services (I don't remember the last time I saw a "Gay v. straight" water fountain)
nathan1977 said:Significant symbols for inequality would seem to be:
- government-sponsored ghettoization (consider the number of Japanese rounded up into internment camps during WWII)
- hate-crimes (compare the numbers of hate crimes committed per year against gay people v. people of an ethnic minority -- particularly Arabs in this country)
- economic disparity (compare the average income of a gay man to that of an African-American/Hispanic-American/Asian American)
- disparity of access to goods and services (I don't remember the last time I saw a "Gay v. straight" water fountain)
nathan1977 said:Irvine, as always, a thoughtful, well-reasoned post. Thanks. Just a couple of follow-up thoughts.
1. I'm still not convinced that gay marriage is a solution to the problems you cite, simply because I'm not convinced that many will take advantage of it. This article from UPI seems to indicate that in the Netherlands, few homosexual couples seem interested in it: "The Dutch government agency Statistics Netherlands reported in late 2002, 'Same-sex couples do not seem to be very interested in marriage. Statistics Netherlands estimates that there are about 50,000 same-sex couples in the Netherlands, of whom less than 10 percent have married so far.'"
2. It's hard to know how to combat psychological discrimination, since it is so much in the eye of the beholder. That gets into ultra-PC-ness, thought police and all of that -- messy areas to regulate, to be sure.
3. As far as the ghettoization you describe, I was talking about government-mandated as opposed to self-selected. Gay friends of mine who live in Provincetown and WeHo say that it's easier to live in supportive communities than try to move into other, less-supportive ones. Since they are choosing where to live and make their home, as opposed to being forced into slums, it's hard to say that it's symptomatic of discrimination in the same way that Japanese displacement was.
Again, I agree that gay discrimination exists. I support (and have supported) any hate-crime legislation that would make a case like Matthew Shepard's obsolete. At the same time, when compared to the discrimination that takes place every day and has for the last few centuries or so against people of color, marriage laws (especially when considering the fact that those fabled tax "incentives" for married couples don't seem to actually exist, since your taxes GO UP as a married couple) as a basis of discrimination just seem to pale as a standard.
Irvine511 said:
i cannot imagine myself anywhere but a coastal, urban city. this is a mental ghetto, and that's where i live.
joyfulgirl said:
FYI, Santa Fe has the largest population of gays and lesbians per capita than any other city in the country except for San Francisco.
Irvine511 said:
i've been to santa fe once.
totally santa fe, and much of the southwest.
in fact, am hoping to take a trip out there sometime in the late fall to visit some friends.
straight friends, too.
Irvine511 said:
other than a Bible-based argument (which may or may not be a misreading, depending on who you talk to), is there any reason not to give marriage rights to gay couples?