Coexist

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anyone who would even bring up that they want the rights to the slogan "CoeXisT" ... well... it speaks volumes

that being said, i'm pretty sure its so obvious that more than one person "invented" the design.. even i thought about it before i saw U2 do it
 
bcrt2000 said:
anyone who would even bring up that they want the rights to the slogan "CoeXisT" ... well... it speaks volumes

that being said, i'm pretty sure its so obvious that more than one person "invented" the design.. even i thought about it before i saw U2 do it


Uh, I don't think this artist is claiming the rights to the slogan "CoeXist', I think he's claiming the rights to the design Bono is wearing on his headband (and projected on the screens in Europe).

The one on this webpage:

http://www.coexistence.art.museum/eng/exhibitions/coex3.htm
 
ramblin rose said:



Uh, I don't think this artist is claiming the rights to the slogan "CoeXist', I think he's claiming the rights to the design Bono is wearing on his headband (and projected on the screens in Europe).

The one on this webpage:

http://www.coexistence.art.museum/eng/exhibitions/coex3.htm
well even if the band failed to ask for permission, surley to god willie asked before he put it up on the screens
 
why would people be pissed at the band?

its silly they didnt seek out permission to use the image, but thats about it

im sure even the artist isnt pissed, his art is getting a lot of exposure and he'll probably make some money off of this
 
Chizip said:
why would people be pissed at the band?

its silly they didnt seek out permission to use the image, but thats about it

im sure even the artist isnt pissed, his art is getting a lot of exposure and he'll probably make some money off of this
ah got ya.... just wasnt getting the feeling of this thread :)
 
Chizip dear boy, I do not know who gave you license to speak on my behalf!

I am pissed!!!11 Royally pissed! Thieves! I hate them! :mad: :madspit:

I am off to make a pile of all my U2 related stuff so I can make a bonfire tonight!!!11
 
KUEFC09U2 said:
so...is everyone pissed at the band?

Not sure about anyone else, but it would take a lot more than this for me to get pissed off at the band.

I'm the quintessential "blind sheep"/"blind follower".:huh:
 
It's three religious symbols and four english letters(none of which can be copywrited alone)...do we even know what kind of rights the artist has? We can speculate all we want, but truth is we don't know. The artist claims he's dissappointed by not being asked, but we really don't know what rights he has or where the band really got the idea.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
It's three religious symbols and four english letters(none of which can be copywrited alone)...do we even know what kind of rights the artist has? We can speculate all we want, but truth is we don't know. The artist claims he's dissappointed by not being asked, but we really don't know what rights he has or where the band really got the idea.


You cannot copyright the letter V, for example, but the specific and unique 'V' image on the vertigo t-shirts is a copyrightable image. The letter; no. The image; yes.

Copyright laws are copyright laws. If the artist created the image the way it appears on U2's screen or Bono's bandana (to a "reasonable" degree), he has automatic copyrights to it. Therefore if he did not grant the band permission to use it U2 will have violated copyright laws. It will not be hard to determine if the image was taken. However, you don't have to be pissed at the band if it's true. We don't know anything really, and if the events as we know it are accurate it could be a simple mistake and often these things can be solved with a simple apology. Sometimes compensation is awarded or sometimes although rarely offered. This is not uncommon in the art world.

Mistakes happen. I don't really know but i would find it hard to believe U2 would maliciously steal an image with mens rea (intent). I think people should just relax and it will probably sort itself out pretty reasonably.

Jon
 
Miroslava said:
....I am off to make a pile of all my U2 related stuff so I can make a bonfire tonight!!!11

To all those concerned please add all your bootleg U2 concert recordings and DVDs to the pile. If you’re unwilling to do so this whole hand wringing copyright violation part of this thread is sort of disingenuous isn’t it.
 
Oh.my.god...

Sarcasm really doesnt register with some people does it?

Lil tip for everyone, when someone makes a dumb comment like that followed by this type of exclamation marks "111!!!!" It is a joke... okay? :wink:
 
Miroslava said:
Chizip dear boy, I do not know who gave you license to speak on my behalf!

I am pissed!!!11 Royally pissed! Thieves! I hate them! :mad: :madspit:

I am off to make a pile of all my U2 related stuff so I can make a bonfire tonight!!!11

U2-flavoured marshmellows :drool:
 
I think the band already thought they had got permission to use the image when they found out about the Chicago students...unless those Chicago students are the ones who have 'stolen' the image...really i don't think the band is at fault in anyway, Bono either saw the image scrawled on a wall in a Chicago subway or somebody in theri crew came up with the idea independently...
 
Miroslava said:


I was stating that it was a known fact that it was Piotr's design and that part of the initial post was unheard of. The 100% referred my personal belief (more like hopes) that the band/production had been smart enough to ask for permission given prior precent from the other tours where they sought out art to match the image they were tying to convey during the shows.

The later post you mention and you took out of the context of that portion of the conversation, refers to speculation as to the possible rights given by the artists to the 2 different entities...

Given this latest article, seems like the band did not ask for permission thereby making my 100% statement wrong, so there you go. Stupid if they didnt secure rights if you ask me.

Gotcha on the first part. But I didn't take anything out of context. You were speculating on the rights given to U2 concerning displaying and/or printing the CoeXisT image. Now using simple logic if you say that you're "100% sure that the proper rights were obtained" then why would you have the need for speculating on what rights were given since it seemed like you were privy to imformation that we're not.

However now I know that you were just being hopeful and didn't really know. It's no big deal just don't state you're 100% sure about something when you're not. That's all.

And I'm not trying to sound like an asshole or anything. I know what you mean now...just trying to explain how your wording was contradicting and that's how I got confused.

Miroslava said:


I didnt say he SHOULD sue, but that he has the right to if he so feels necessary...

And speaking of blatant asses...


:wink:

uh? I hope you're being sarcastic because I wasn't being an asshole...but whatever :)
 
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Achtung Ya'll said:

uh? I hope you're being sarcastic because I wasn't being an asshole...but whatever :)

You kinda were :sexywink:

I think we're clear now... as admitted before, yes I made an ass out of myself in one point as you so helpfully pointed out. I'm enough woman to admit when I said something stupid...
 
Interesting thread!

If we assume that Bono thought the Coexist graffiti was simply graffiti, or had implied / express permission from the students he thought were the creators, then I don't think it could (or should) be taken further. It's a mistake on his part and nothing more.

The "logo"for want of better description, is not being used in such a way that it promotes a song, or concert, or a tour either. You could argue that it is therefore not being used to make money, while at the same time denying the creator a share. It is being used to promote an ideal - A sound one at that - which the creator was also trying to do.

Its use could conceivably be covered in the "Fair Use" exemption to US Copyright, allowing an image or symbol to be used without express permission in commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education. Actually it works retroactively, as in the band is sued - admit culpability - claim "fair use" - possibly offer some kind of compensation.

For this to work however, U2 will need to make sure that the "logo" is attributed to the artist from now on. Other considerations must also be made, such as not harming the owner's gain from its commercial value (should it have one).

Given the way that the "logo" is used by U2 however, I think that legal action would a last resort and may ultimately harm the creator and his integrity. As I think someone mentioned earlier, for a globally known band like U2 to use an image, it guarantees a lot of exposure and potentially a lot of future earnings or commisions for the artist.

In short, if no arrangement has been made to attribute the work to Piotr, then it should be done at the earliest possible opportunity. That, in my opinion anyway, is the fairest way to resolve any issues that may arise from this.

I honestly think it is a simple misunderstanding, born of nothing but good intentions. I guess many a law suit begins that way tho eh? :wink:
 
hcbiggs2002 said:
U2 first used the message COEXIST in the book that came with the special editon of How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb DVD. Check the centre page.

:eek: I can't believe that I didn't remember that it was in that book, I read it over and over.
 
stevec said:
Interesting thread!

If we assume that Bono thought the Coexist graffiti was simply graffiti, or had implied / express permission from the students he thought were the creators, then I don't think it could (or should) be taken further. It's a mistake on his part and nothing more.

The "logo"for want of better description, is not being used in such a way that it promotes a song, or concert, or a tour either. You could argue that it is therefore not being used to make money, while at the same time denying the creator a share. It is being used to promote an ideal - A sound one at that - which the creator was also trying to do.

Its use could conceivably be covered in the "Fair Use" exemption to US Copyright, allowing an image or symbol to be used without express permission in commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education. Actually it works retroactively, as in the band is sued - admit culpability - claim "fair use" - possibly offer some kind of compensation.

For this to work however, U2 will need to make sure that the "logo" is attributed to the artist from now on. Other considerations must also be made, such as not harming the owner's gain from its commercial value (should it have one).

Given the way that the "logo" is used by U2 however, I think that legal action would a last resort and may ultimately harm the creator and his integrity. As I think someone mentioned earlier, for a globally known band like U2 to use an image, it guarantees a lot of exposure and potentially a lot of future earnings or commisions for the artist.

In short, if no arrangement has been made to attribute the work to Piotr, then it should be done at the earliest possible opportunity. That, in my opinion anyway, is the fairest way to resolve any issues that may arise from this.

I honestly think it is a simple misunderstanding, born of nothing but good intentions. I guess many a law suit begins that way tho eh? :wink:



Hi stevec,
I work in the art business and I've seen this type of situation before on many occasions and as a general rule artists have the right of refusal since they own the copyrights to any work they produce. True that U2 is using the image with the best of intentions but it can be argued, I think, that their intentions and the music that expresses them, as well as the tour, generates a lot of revenue. What follows is obvious; it can be construed that U2 is using copyrighted material in order to enhance an already lucrative tour production.

For a good understanding of copyright laws, here is an example from the US gov't; http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html#what_protect

What does copyright protect?
Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section "What Works Are Protected."


WHAT WORKS ARE PROTECTED?
Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:

literary works;
musical works, including any accompanying words
dramatic works, including any accompanying music
pantomimes and choreographic works
pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
motion pictures and other audiovisual works
sound recordings
architectural works


Now for the "Fair Use Limitation"

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.



My reponses:

In terms of 1) we have determined it could work against U2 since this is part of a "for profit" and actually highly lucrative tour.

2) If the image used is a work of art and it can be attributed to this artist, then it is protected by copyright laws. This also works against U2.

3) Subject to the truth of 2, if U2 has used a key element or substancial portion of the work by this artist it will also work against U2.

4) This could have clearly work in U2's favour as it gives the work gret exposure. Where U2 will run into difficulty is they have not attributed the work to the artist so whereas the image is getting exposure, the artist who should be benefitting is not. It doesn't do much good for artist X if I promote his/her work without an attribution.


Even if number 4 were to be judged in U2's favour I will tell you that from my experience it is the least important factor. The artists permission is the most important.

I do agree with you that a law suit is unecessary, though. It's likely just a mistake and it sound like the artist is a good spirited one. I think an apology would probably be sufficient, although if U2 is going to continue using the image they will have to get permission. As you said, though, even benign issues can cause a stir. Let's hope not.

regards,
Jon
 
Coexist???

Are we having a laugh. Take a look at London yesterday..

Islam cannot work with Christianity. East can`t meet West.

Maybe thats just the way things are meant to be. After all God must have had a reason for putting so much sea on the planet to keep us divided.

Peace.. We wish
 
Miroslava said:


You kinda were :sexywink:


huh? I just mentioned that there was another option...I didn't say it in any flaming or trolling way at all. That's what I hate about the internet sometimes...it's impossible to get proper intonation and afflection across so people often put the wrong emphasis, accenting, etc on the words and things often come across as misinterpreted! doh!
 
Achtung Ya'll said:


huh? I just mentioned that there was another option...I didn't say it in any flaming or trolling way at all. That's what I hate about the internet sometimes...it's impossible to get proper intonation and afflection across so people often put the wrong emphasis, accenting, etc on the words and things often come across as misinterpreted! doh!

woah woah woah, no need to freak out. let's all settle down.
 
Achtung Ya'll said:


huh? I just mentioned that there was another option...I didn't say it in any flaming or trolling way at all. That's what I hate about the internet sometimes...it's impossible to get proper intonation and afflection across so people often put the wrong emphasis, accenting, etc on the words and things often come across as misinterpreted! doh!

Exactly, I was just being an ass when I implied that you might have been an ass and thus the :sexywink:

Smilies are our friends! :wink:
 
its a simple idea which im sure has been used many times and been created by many different people, how can u copywrite 3 religious symbols and a word anyway?

infact seeing as how everybodys claiming it, its fucking mine guys! i was sitting down one day and i thought to myself "what an idea!" and U2 used their awful mind satilite to steal it from my brain and put it on their bigscreen for vertigo tour europe :wink: :wink: :wink:
 
Hey guys,

I wanted to let you know that we published an article this week on @U2 that lays out this CoeXisT situation. It's a very interesting scenario with multiple players. I hope this explains the key issues:

I can't post the link, but just go to atu2.com and click on the article called "Can't We All Just Coexist?" Right now, it's the first one.

I've personally spoken/emailed with all the players involved. I'd be happy to answer any questions about the situation, if I know the answer.

Some key points:

Piotr Mlodozeniec is the artist who created this design for a 2001 competion. There is no documented existence of it prior to that -- by all accounts, he is the copyright holder.

Coexist LLP/coexistonline.com of Fishers, IN (some employees live in Chicago) found this symbol on the Internet, made minor changes, and got a US trademark for it in 2003. Now they're suing others to prevent anyone else from using it. They recently asked Mlodozeniec for permission to use the design -- after filing the lawsuits -- but he said no. He is very upset. This US company are the ones who are reportedly in talks with U2.

U2 had never spoken to Mlodozeniec (as of 7/11, at least). He tried to get a hold of them, but they didn't get back to him. I know this because I was the one who gave him the contact info for PM, and I spoke with him on the phone after the concert in Poland, and he told me he didn't get to talk to anyone

His primary concern is specifically not with U2 using the symbol -- he likes what they're doing with it. His primary concern is that another company his suing others to keep him from using it. His point is that if anyone has the right to say who and who cannot use this image, it's him. To him, this applies to everyone, including U2.

But he's not accusing U2 of "stealing" it, per se. He understands that Bono saw it as graffiti and didn't know he was the author or copyright holder.

But while he does like how Bono and U2 are using the symbol, he still believes that, as the copyright holder, they should have, and still should, ask his permission.

Also in the mix is the Museum on the Seam for Dialogue, Understanding and Coexistence in Jerusalem. They held the contest and chose Piotr's art for their exhibition, which is traveling the world. They also state that they have control over the use of this design, and have denied all requests to use it while the exhibit is still travelling.

Hope this helps.

Kevin Hutchinson
 
I wonder is the guys in the US who are trying to extort money are the same ones that own the TM to the word stealth. There was a very good article about the stealth guys in the Globe and Mail (Canadian national paper) and a great overview of trademark law. These guys were trying to extort money from the upcoming movie "Stealth"...
 
Well, I wouldn't say the Coexist guys are "extorting" money -- they are just trying to keep anyone else from making money on their legally trademarked brand.

Legally trademarked, of course, two years after the original artist copyrighted it...
 
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