nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
For all the efforts to learn and understand, it is surprising that you would leave this subject as an unknown.
nbcrusader said:For all the efforts to learn and understand, it is surprising that you would leave this subject as an unknown.
Se7en said:outside of religious texts, how is there any way to learn about or understand any possible consciousness after death?
I'm against both fear and religion.Irvine511 said:it also strikes me that this, combined with fear, are religion's two main selling points.
not God, *religion*.
Irvine511 said:it also strikes me that this, combined with fear, are religion's two main selling points.
nbcrusader said:
Interesting, because when I came to faith in Christ, it was not about fearing death or a bonus afterlife. It was about realizing that my creator loves me.
Irvine511 said:see, this is what i don't get. why is there a need to humanize the infinite? why do we need to apply human characteristics upon things we don't understand, and are inequipped to understand? this is not to negate a belief in the infinite, or of life after death, or really any of the big ideas behind religion. it's a need of humanity to put these things in human terns. understandable, no doubt.
you have unwittingly stumbled upon the crux of the Christian faith! okay, Christ is God, along with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, they are all three seperate, yet they are one. no this does not make sense. it is an illogical leap that faith requires, one of those things that "we don't undertand, and are inequipped to understand."Irvine511 said:
see, this is what i don't get. why is there a need to humanize the infinite? why do we need to apply human characteristics upon things we don't understand, and are inequipped to understand? this is not to negate a belief in the infinite, or of life after death, or really any of the big ideas behind religion. it's a need of humanity to put these things in human terns. understandable, no doubt.
to me, the big idea is God. Christ strikes me as window dressing.
shrmn8rpoptart said:you have unwittingly stumbled upon the crux of the Christian faith! okay, Christ is God, along with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, they are all three seperate, yet they are one. no this does not make sense. it is an illogical leap that faith requires, one of those things that "we don't undertand, and are inequipped to understand."
now, Christians did not project human characterestics onto Christ. it is precisely the opposite. in His infinite mercy, wisdom, and grace, Chris was sent, by the Father, into the world as a human. Christ took the human form Himself! there was no need for us to "humanize the infinite" he did it Himself.
the problem with your statements are this: if Jesus appeared to you bearing wounds from the cross, you would still not believe. you would know. there is a difference between knowledge and belief. belief requires a faith in something that cannot be known. say for instance, that having never met you, you tell me that you have red hair. if i trust you as an honest person, and have faith in your statement, then it can be said that i believe you have red hair. if however, i were to meet you, and saw that you have red hair, then i would know you have red hair.Se7en said:until i am proven otherwise i will accept that revealed religion is the creation of god in man's image. consider me a doubting thomas if you will, but if jesus appears to me bearing wounds from the cross then i'll believe. thomas had that opportunity - i think we all should. [/i]
Macfistowannabe said:However, Jesus lived a perfect, sinless, flawless life that none of us humans can achieve, whether or not we believe in God.
Fully God and fully man. He understood what it was like to preach truth and be hated for it. He understands human pain and suffering far better than I do.Irvine511 said:
then was he even human?
your last sentence is one that i think with any amount of thought, most Christians would agree upon. God is an infinite, omnipresent, omnipowerful entity who (i know it should be that, who is a pronoun used to describe a human, but sorry, who just flows more naturally to me when i write) has existed from eternity, and will continue to exist for eternity. we know nothing of God's infinite majesty and wisdom, are minds are entirely to simple to grasp these infinite qualities, except, from what the Bible gives us. The Bible is God telling us about Himself! it is allowing us a peek at His infinite majesty, as it applies to us.Irvine511 said:
dear, not "unwittingly" -- this is exactly what i was talking about.
what you say sounds positively looney tunes unless you accept on faith the tenets of Christianity. if you don't, and you step back and take a look at Christianity (or any religion), you'll see that it operates just like any self-contained thought system. you assert absolute certainty, but not everyone shares it.
also, it seems to me that God took the human form in Christ, not Christ taking the human form, since he is the human god. or at least that's what i took from 10 years of sunday school.
but take a step back and try and look at Christ and Christanity as a skeptic, not a believer. look at the words you use -- mercy, wisdom, grace. all human characteristics. what i'm saying is that i can accept the idea of God, the Infinite, whatever you want to call it. i'm agnostic -- i know there's as much evidence for or against the existence of God (there isn't any either way). however, religion is entirely a human construction, and Christ is an extention of this human creation.
it's getting a little chicken and egg here ... but i think the existence of God is far more important than, and operates independently of, Christianity.
Macfistowannabe said:Fully God and fully man. He understood what it was like to preach truth and be hated for it. He understands human pain and suffering far better than I do.
His disciples were beheaded, imprisoned, and tortured for spreading his word, yet they preached the good news anyhow. Imagine their faith and courage in a world that's possibly worse than the one we live in today! Not to mention, he went through a crucifixion - A VERY BRUTAL ONE. There are Christians who believe his crucifixion was much worse than the horror that we saw in The Passion Of The Christ.Irvine511 said:
how could he undestand human pain and suffering if he lived a perfect, flawless life? wouldn't the story be more compelling, more amazing, if the real Christ were closer to Scorsese's version than these dew-eyed, Anglo, sanitized historical reimaginings that we're so sentimental about?
he understood pain and suffering because he was executed in one of the most gruesome and painful methods possible! he was an innocent man who suffered and died.Irvine511 said:
how could he undestand human pain and suffering if he lived a perfect, flawless life? wouldn't the story be more compelling, more amazing, if the real Christ were closer to Scorsese's version than these dew-eyed, Anglo, sanitized historical reimaginings that we're so sentimental about?
nbcrusader said:
How about prayer?
shrmn8rpoptart said:he understood pain and suffering because he was executed in one of the most gruesome and painful methods possible! he was an innocent man who suffered and died.
Se7en said:
so if i ask god, it'll just tell me? where's the faith in that?
...
i see elsewhere that now the mysterious trinity has been evoked. good luck with that discussion irvine - no amount of reason will help you. there is no explaning the holy trinity. just accept the mystery of god and follow along. also, don't pay attention to the 'pagan' trinities on which the christian example is modeled.
He felt beatings, betrayal, and injustice the same way we do. He is also fully God, and he knows pain and suffering on a level that exceeds beyond what any human being could possibly comprehend.Irvine511 said:
so do lots of people, back then and now. the point still stands: if jesus lived a perfect life, i don't see how he could be human, and therefore how he could understand pain and suffering more than other humans.
so, let me try to understand, if God doesn't answer your prayers in the manner you would like them to be, then He doesn't exist. but, if things do happen the way you wanted them, God obviously had nothing to do with it? if this is how you analyze the efficacy of prayer, then there is no possible way that you would atribute anything to God.Se7en said:
so if i ask god, it'll just tell me? where's the faith in that?
i prayed consciously for years and objectively, i don't think a single one was answered directly by god. here and there what i hoped for turned out in that way but there are always reasonable explanations for such things. that is not to say that i am bitter, i just don't think god answers prayers at all. i guess it just makes people feel better thinking they have this open communication with a deity - someone who is always there to talk to and who loves us infinitely. again, not to deny either possibility - but there is no proof of it. personally i think god is out there and cares in some abstract form about what it has created but i simply don't believe in two way communication - the deity has already given us everything we need.
i see elsewhere that now the mysterious trinity has been evoked. good luck with that discussion irvine - no amount of reason will help you. there is no explaning the holy trinity. just accept the mystery of god and follow along. also, don't pay attention to the 'pagan' trinities on which the christian example is modeled.
by human, it is simply meant that Jesus was born into the world in the full form of a human. his body was human just like yours and mine. the difference is that His will was not corrupted (like the rest of us humans are, as your post would suggest, you agree that to be human is to be sinful). He endured the the infirmities, frailities, pain, and suffering the come with existing inside of a human body. His body was not perfect any more than mine is. yet, his will was not corrupt, he kept the commandments, and did His Father's will, which are things that we cannot. this is what a Christian means when they say Jesus lived a perfect life.Irvine511 said:
so do lots of people, back then and now. the point still stands: if jesus lived a perfect life, i don't see how he could be human, and therefore how he could understand pain and suffering more than other humans.
Macfistowannabe said:Someone like Se7en has a lot of skepticism, but I think that if he went to a church service and had a chat with the pastor, he might come to understand how faith in God works.