Can God be "the bigger person" when it comes to non-believers?

[shrmn8rpoptart]

oh, and i was going back and reading some old posts...here's another thought: searching for the truth is great, but we have to be willing to accept that the truth may not be what we had in mind. and if this turns out to be the case (and it almost certainly will) if what you want is truth, you must be willing to put aside your own desires.

 

[nbcrusader]

how could he undestand human pain and suffering if he lived a perfect, flawless life? wouldn't the story be more compelling, more amazing, if the real Christ were closer to Scorsese's version than these dew-eyed, Anglo, sanitized historical reimaginings that we're so sentimental about?

Jesus was mocked, rejected, tortured and killed. He experienced other forms of suffering and sadness as well. He didn't have to sin to go through these experiences.

Nothing sanitized or sentimental in the life of Jesus.

 

[Se7en]

oh, and i was going back and reading some old posts...here's another thought: searching for the truth is great, but we have to be willing to accept that the truth may not be what we had in mind. and if this turns out to be the case (and it almost certainly will) if what you want is truth, you must be willing to put aside your own desires.

that's actually quite poignant for myself. i feel as though i experienced that exact situation two years ago. i concluded that the truth does not rest in christianity and i put aside my own desire for having what i believed for my whole life be the truth and set out on a new journey.

it was hard. it was sad. it was liberating.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

i wonder if you know how many church services i attended in the first 19 years of my life. more than i care to count. been there, done that.

faith in which/who's god?

ps. i think some of you misunderstood my post on prayer. i was not suggesting i am in need of a genie, in fact the genie mentality is what bothers me most about prayer. i've just come to the conclusion that god answers no prayers. and again, i am not bitter about that in the least.

of course you will never be able to acknowledge that God answers prayers, because if things don't turn out they way that you wanted them, then God didn't answer your prayer, and if on the other hand, things do go you way, you find a reason why God wasn't a part of that.

you have closed your mind off to the efficacy of prayer, and no matter what God works in your life, you seem determined to turn a blind eye to it.

(also remember that it is well within God's power to say 'no')

 

[nbcrusader]

so if i ask god, it'll just tell me? where's the faith in that?

i prayed consciously for years and objectively, i don't think a single one was answered directly by god. here and there what i hoped for turned out in that way but there are always reasonable explanations for such things. that is not to say that i am bitter, i just don't think god answers prayers at all. i guess it just makes people feel better thinking they have this open communication with a deity - someone who is always there to talk to and who loves us infinitely. again, not to deny either possibility - but there is no proof of it. personally i think god is out there and cares in some abstract form about what it has created but i simply don't believe in two way communication - the deity has already given us everything we need.

God does answer prayer, but I've come to realize that prayer is answered in a way that changes us instead of changing God.

If the prayer is to believe and understand, I believe God will honor such a prayer.

i see elsewhere that now the mysterious trinity has been evoked. good luck with that discussion irvine - no amount of reason will help you. there is no explaning the holy trinity. just accept the mystery of god and follow along. also, don't pay attention to the 'pagan' trinities on which the christian example is modeled.

I've heard it said that the person who could completely explain the Trinity would be the 4th member.

 

[nbcrusader]

I went to church when I was younger, even chose to get baptized when I was in my teens and now at the tender age of 26 I'm more skeptical than ever. I've had my share of pastors and I just don't buy it.

I think we all have skepticism at some point in our lives. But you can find comfort in the promise of Zechariah 1:3

"Therefore tell the people: This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Return to me,' declares the LORD Almighty, 'and I will return to you,' says the LORD Almighty."

 

[U2democrat]

shoot, nbcrusader, why don't you just become a pastor? you're good at this.

 

[Se7en]

I think we all have skepticism at some point in our lives. But you can find comfort in the promise of Zechariah 1:3

"Therefore tell the people: This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Return to me,' declares the LORD Almighty, 'and I will return to you,' says the LORD Almighty."

comfort...quiet...follow...............

 

[nbcrusader]

shoot, nbcrusader, why don't you just become a pastor? you're good at this.

I've left that open as an option.

 

[Irvine511]

nbcrusader ... you are perhaps the most civil person on here, and you certainly know a lot about the Bible. while i disagree with you most of the time, i respect your posts a great deal and find them extremely helpful to me.

however, the way you (effortlessly, and impressively) reference the bible it is, i think, indicative of exactly my problems with Christianity in the narrow sense, and religion in the broad sense. for every question, you've got a neatly contained answer that, to me, has little to no relevance on my life or my experience. it's a self-referential, self-justified, entirely closed system. you prove scripture with scripture. got doubts about Scripture? Scripture has an answer. God not answering your prayers? you'll change and that will answer your prayers.

it's very North Korean sounding -- like "he leads because he is great, and he is great because he leads." my mind simply cannot accept such circular logic, and this is precisely why i can intellectually and rationally explore the idea of God, but cannot accept religion, as it is commonly practiced and understood, into my life.

 

[nbcrusader]

nbcrusader ... you are perhaps the most civil person on here, and you certainly know a lot about the Bible. while i disagree with you most of the time, i respect your posts a great deal and find them extremely helpful to me.

however, the way you (effortlessly, and impressively) reference the bible it is, i think, indicative of exactly my problems with Christianity in the narrow sense, and religion in the broad sense. for every question, you've got a neatly contained answer that, to me, has little to no relevance on my life or my experience. it's a self-referential, self-justified, entirely closed system. you prove scripture with scripture. got doubts about Scripture? Scripture has an answer. God not answering your prayers? you'll change and that will answer your prayers.

it's very North Korean sounding -- like "he leads because he is great, and he is great because he leads." my mind simply cannot accept such circular logic, and this is precisely why i can intellectually and rationally explore the idea of God, but cannot accept religion, as it is commonly practiced and understood, into my life.

Fair enough.

I try to keep my answers based on Scripture instead of my own throughts and beliefs because the later will change - over time, based on my mood, or even based on how the question is posed to me.

I should sharpen up on my apologetics. Then I could better appeal to the type of answers you are looking for.

 

[BostonAnne]

I would say that with all this looking for the truth....stop it.

Start answering GOD'S call to your heart. Start with something basic, like the Sermon on the Mount. Live and walk the walk of someone who loves your neighbor.

Don't be on the sidelines waiting for the truth to hit you like an anvil. GODS grace is BIGGER than any DOCTRINE or TRUTH that we choose to believe or not believe, the message and living the message is more important than believing in a DOCTRINE.

Dreadsox! You took the words out of my mouth. Living and walking the walk of someone who loves thy neighbor is my #1 priority as a Christian. As you search to walk the walk, your faith becomes stronger. To me, serving is what it is all about.

Good luck at the conference this weekend!

 

[verte76]

I feel like God does answer my prayers. Just yesterday I woke up healed from a really painful illness......I was quite shocked, I expected to have the illness for weeks. I recently made a pilgrimage and am planning other pilgrimages. It means alot to me, these are very emotional experiences.

 

[stammer476]

I should sharpen up on my apologetics.

NB, if you're serious about that, I've got some great books to recommend to get you started.

 

[nbcrusader]

NB, if you're serious about that, I've got some great books to recommend to get you started.

Always interested in new books

email me if you please: nbcrusader@gmail.com

Thanks!!

 

[kobayashi]

this thread has lots more posts than the last time i was here. thats cool.

But I do think that all of us experience regular moments where we say, "I wish this world was a better place." Or, "I long for peace, joy, and satisfaction." I believe that this longing is the longing that God has placed in all of us, a desire that he has implanted so that we will search for him. He knows that we will never find these things apart from him, since he is the creator of these things and their ultimate source.

I don't know if that answered your question at all, but I hope it helped.

thanks stammer. it helps me to understand the perspective of the believer. i dont think ill ever find myself among them.

i think about the lack of 'peace, joy and satisfaction' and begin to consider socioeconomic causes, cultural factors and the role of developed nations and so on and so forth.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I went to church when I was younger, even chose to get baptized when I was in my teens and now at the tender age of 26 I'm more skeptical than ever. I've had my share of pastors and I just don't buy it.

Jesus said that it's nearly impossible to enter the kingdom of God unless you have the faith of a child. By this, I mean you must expand your horizons, put your politics and your egos aside, and believe in a new hope.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Anyone here ever heard of the apostle Thomas?

The man who saw Jesus after he rose from the dead, yet refused to believe it? Yes, I've heard of him. He's a lot like me. We all are a lot like me. We're sinners who need forgiveness and a stronger relationship with God.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

nbcrusader ... you are perhaps the most civil person on here, and you certainly know a lot about the Bible. while i disagree with you most of the time, i respect your posts a great deal and find them extremely helpful to me.

however, the way you (effortlessly, and impressively) reference the bible it is, i think, indicative of exactly my problems with Christianity in the narrow sense, and religion in the broad sense. for every question, you've got a neatly contained answer that, to me, has little to no relevance on my life or my experience. it's a self-referential, self-justified, entirely closed system. you prove scripture with scripture. got doubts about Scripture? Scripture has an answer. God not answering your prayers? you'll change and that will answer your prayers.

it's very North Korean sounding -- like "he leads because he is great, and he is great because he leads." my mind simply cannot accept such circular logic, and this is precisely why i can intellectually and rationally explore the idea of God, but cannot accept religion, as it is commonly practiced and understood, into my life.

For someone who's had a sense of struggle all their life like you, Irvine, I would highly recommend reading Job. You don't even have to go out and buy a Bible, there's plenty of sites on the web that have the bible. I believe that it will comfort and inspire you.

 

[blueyedpoet]

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Anyone here ever heard of the apostle Thomas?
To which Macfistowannabe replied:
"The man who saw Jesus after he rose from the dead, yet refused to believe it? Yes, I've heard of him. He's a lot like me. We all are a lot like me. We're sinners who need forgiveness and a stronger relationship with God."

Actually, if you read your Bible again you'll notice that he didn't see Jesus which is why he did not believe. It wasn't until Jesus did appear in front of Thomas, that Thomas did believe. Jesus did not appear angry or upset at all either. Perhaps this is an answer to the original question. Though it should be noted that we have all agreed that God is in no way human like. Some believe he took the form of a human with Jesus.
Here's a proposition: There is the notion that God is love among many believers in some sort of God. Let's assume that originally when humanity was very early in it's existance it had a deep connection with the natural world. Think of amerindians (natives) and magnify their spiritualization. The book of Genesis talks about Adam and Eve walking with God in the evenings. As a metaphor that serves quiet well the picture i'm trying to paint. Humanity was very close to the spirit because humanity was so close to nature - the flow and energy of life. After a while though humans began to segregate, the idea of power spread, greed infilitrated thought, and suddenly the extra special relationship between nature and the human divided. The great energy of life is also described as love. Because it is love it did not give up. From time to time love has strongly been concentrated in individuals to help the rest of humanity reunite with this force of love and energy. Finding heaven is when one reconnects with this force. A heaven in the afterlife, if it exists, would just be extra icing on the cake.
So with this in mind, perhaps that patient in ER found peace and heaven at last in the end. By just awknowledging and being aware of the presence he found peace, and so we could say that God - so to speak - was a greater person.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

My bad, Blueeyed... you're probably much closer to being a biblical scholar than me. Although I truly am inspired by the Bible, I can't remember every detail I've read.

 

[blueyedpoet]

hmm perhaps i appeared to abrupt in my handling of the mistake....everyone makes mistakes about what they've read in the Bible. Even I - great Bible scholar that i am - make mistakes. I even received a B on a test in a Bible as Lit. class ....sometimes i, along with other philosophy students - if you ever run across one - tend to forget that people who make claims are not the claims themselves. In other words, I can get so caught up in proving someone wrong, that I forget to consider their feelings. My humblest of apologies for taking myself too seriously and for underscoring anyone's feelings.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

That's not a problem, buddy.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Is he now sitting in hell, never to be reunited with his wife and sons despite his prior life of belief and any other good things he may have done on earth? If so, I think that's totally crappy and God should be ashamed of himself.

As humans, we have to understand that we're in no position to judge God. He is superior to us. Just like in "Please"

So love is big, bigger than us...
But love is not what you're thinking of..

I find that in a lot of U2's songs, "love" is a euphamism for God. I guess it's artistic license, and I don't really see anything wrong with it.

 

[Se7en]

As humans, we have to understand that we're in no position to judge God. He is superior to us.

perhaps we are in no position to attempt to understand it either.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

perhaps we are in no position to attempt to understand it either.

How do you figure? Why do you think faith-based programs have become so successful? There is no reason I can possibly think of as to why we can't let go of our selfish pride.

 

[Se7en]

you seem to be implying that my selfish pride is preventing me from seeing your truth, yet you remain steadfast in your position that you understand god and its will, presented neatly in a book. i find that inconsistent.

 

[BVS]

you seem to be implying that my selfish pride is preventing me from seeing your truth, yet you remain steadfast in your position that you understand god and its will, presented neatly in a book. i find that inconsistent.

Welcome to fanaticism.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

you seem to be implying that my selfish pride is preventing me from seeing your truth, yet you remain steadfast in your position that you understand god and its will, presented neatly in a book. i find that inconsistent.

I don't understand everything about God, but one thing I do know is that he is not a slave or a genie. He is bigger than mankind, and it's sad to see that people simply can't accept that. We all have selfish pride, I'm not going to single you out.

 

[nbcrusader]

Welcome to fanaticism.

Inerrancy of Scripture is fanaticism....?

wonderful