... and the world's most violent developed nation is ...

[ewen]

Tell them your Sean Connery story, Ewen!

Nope, sorry.

 

[Irvine511]

firstly, i smell a strong book sales for _Ewens Rough Guide to a Non-Violent Holiday in Scotland_.

i also went to a gay rodeo 2 weeks ago (interesting experience) and believe it or not, at the market, not only could you buy your typical cowboy hats, boots, and ass-less chaps, but you could also buy leather kilts.

kinky.

i also love Scotland -- spent 2 months wandering around aimlessly, and no fights. but i will say that i saw more vomit on the streets of E'burgh at 2am than in any other city i've ever been to (Boston on St. Patrick's Day included).

i prefer Ewen McGregor to Sean Connery. the name "Irvine" comes from Irvine Welsh, author of _Trainspotting_, the book i wrote my senior thesis on.

i do think it's interesting how much perception of statistics influences our expectations of a place. never, not once, have i ever had a bad experience in any American city. yet, someone attempted to pickpocket me in Prague and in Brussels (crafty me, i had my wallet hidden, so they got nothing). in Morocco, everyone seemed delighted to meet an American and were pleasantly surprised that i spoke (some) French. and everyone thinks i'm german (have been called "Fritz" on more than one occasion). so ... who knows?

go travel and make your own impressions.

 

[Irvine511]

i also remember hearing that Scots were fine, but the following people weren't:

The English -- they colonized Scotland, violently
The Americans -- responsible for a little place called Hollywood
The Australians -- responsible for a little man called Mel Gibson

 

[ewen]

Irvine!! you're going to make me violent!!

You did that on purpose, you naughty man! People are going to believe that!

Scotland wasn't colonised, folks!! grrr She united with England and Wales some 400 years ago following the death of England's Queen Elizabeth. James 6th of Scotland became James 1st of England and ruled both realms from down in London. All three have been united as Great Britain ever since. The United Kingdom refers to Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In the early 20th century this was of course the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

 

[pax]

Nope, sorry.

 

[pax]

...but you could also buy leather kilts.

www.utilikilt.com

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine!! you're going to make me violent!!

You did that on purpose, you naughty man! People are going to believe that!

Scotland wasn't colonised, folks!! grrr She united with England and Wales some 400 years ago following the death of England's Queen Elizabeth. James 6th of Scotland became James 1st of England and ruled both realms from down in London. All three have been united as Great Britain ever since. The United Kingdom refers to Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In the early 20th century this was of course the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

then i am misinformed. i apologize.

i distinctly remember the highlander demonstration (where i heard the Aussie/Brit/Yank quote) where the dude showing off all the cool weaponry distinctly used the word "colonization." also, he said the forced highland removals from the 18th century would today be called ethnic cleansing. further, remember the Renton quote? "some people hate the English; i don't. they're just wankers. we, on the other hand, were colonized by wankers. we can't even find a decent civilization to be colonized by."

and i even wrote a thesis referring to the colonization.

could this be one of those "Civil War vs. War of Northern Aggression vs War Between the States" things?

will respectfully plead ignorance and slowly back away before Ewen tosses a pint glass in my face ...

 

[ewen]

then i am misinformed. i apologize.

i distinctly remember the highlander demonstration (where i heard the Aussie/Brit/Yank quote) where the dude showing off all the cool weaponry distinctly used the word "colonization." also, he said the forced highland removals from the 18th century would today be called ethnic cleansing. further, remember the Renton quote? "some people hate the English; i don't. they're just wankers. we, on the other hand, were colonized by wankers. we can't even find a decent civilization to be colonized by."

and i even wrote a thesis referring to the colonization.

could this be one of those "Civil War vs. War of Northern Aggression vs War Between the States" things?

Ok, firstly there is absolutely NO need for that kind of tone with me Irvine! I thought you were having a joke with your prior post but you are actually serious? I think now you are just trying to get a rise from me when I thought this was in good humour. Thinking that Scotland was colonised by England is absolute nonsense and if you are just trying to wind me up then kindly just say so because if otherwise I'm just not going to waste my time and I'll go back into 'retirement' (as Pax put it earlier).

No, Scotland was not colonised by England and if you wrote a thesis saying that it was then I am sorry to say, but....it's fit for the fire, period, if you believe that to be the history of the UNITED Kingdom.

All I can say is...read up on your British history and get your facts right. Read up on the Highland clearances and the Union of The Crowns. There is a wealth of information about both on the WWW.

Renton's line in Trainspotting is funny and echoes what many pissed off Scots feel like. It's not actually factual what he's saying! He's a fictional character saying something I've probably felt and said many times myself as a matter of frustration. Many Scots do feel that they were colonised simply because we are by far the smaller of the two countries and even though Scotland is OVER represented in the House of Commons, we always felt ruled over because the Parliament is in London.

With that, I am now going back into retirement, have a good day. I can't and will not carry on or entertain any more.

 

[Irvine511]

Ok, firstly there is absolutely NO need for that kind of tone with me Irvine! I thought you were having a joke with your prior post but you are actually serious? I think now you are just trying to get a rise from me when I thought this was in good humour. Thinking that Scotland was colonised by England is absolute nonsense and if you are just trying to wind me up then kindly just say so because if otherwise I'm just not going to waste my time and I'll go back into 'retirement' (as Pax put it earlier).

No, Scotland was not colonised by England and if you wrote a thesis saying that it was then I am sorry to say, but....it's fit for the fire, period, if you believe that to be the history of the UNITED Kingdom.

All I can say is...read up on your British history and get your facts right. Read up on the Highland clearances and the Union of The Crowns. There is a wealth of information about both on the WWW.

Renton's line in Trainspotting is funny and echoes what many pissed off Scots feel like. It's not actually factual what he's saying! He's a fictional character saying something I've probably felt and said many times myself as a matter of frustration. Many Scots do feel that they were colonised simply because we are by far the smaller of the two countries and even though Scotland is OVER represented in the House of Commons, we always felt ruled over because the Parliament is in London.

With that, I am now going back into retirement, have a good day. I can't and will not carry on or entertain any more.

i'm sorry if my tone came off wrong -- i was serious about colonization, and i was seeking more information from you. i am not trying to get a rise, i was just offering rationale for my statement.

i think there might be different definitions of what colonization is? that was one of the things i talked about -- white on white colonization, as opposed to obvious white on brown colonization in India, say, is far more psychological and less easily identifiable as such.

if i've offended you, it was not my intention to do so.

 

[Irvine511]

and, Ewen, just so you know i really am curious, here's an opening paragraph of an essay written by my thesis advisor -- this was an essay that he and i worked on, and which my thesis played a role in helping him develop. (i've taken out his name, though it is google-able). and i totally thought up the title!



"Wankerdom: Trainspotting As a Rejection of the Postcolonial?"

People of Scottish descent are usually proud about their history and their achievements. . . . They can recite many names and details in the familiar story of their people. "Braveheart" William Wallace and Robert the Bruce; the Arbroath Declaration and Mary Queen of Scots; Robert Burns and Bonnie Prince Charlie.
—Arthur Herman, How the Scots Invented the Modern World

The experience of defeat, followed by enforced union, changed forever the relationship . . . to England . . . never again could the Scots deceive themselves that the English lacked the will or the means to conquer them.
—John Robertson, quoted in Tom Nairn, Faces of Nationalism: Janus Revisited


Long before and long after the "enforced union" of 1707, Scots from across the ideological spectrum have come to recognize that they are—despite occasional pretenses and denials to the contrary—a people "colonized" by the English. From William Wallace's "braveheart" struggle against Edward I in the early fourteenth century to the Highland chieftain Rob Roy's quest for honor against the Duke of Montrose some three hundred years later, from Robertson's critiques to the verse of Jacobite poet laureate Robbie Burns, from the maverick politicking of Tom Johnson early in the twentieth century to the contemporary work of Tom Nairn, the Scots have battled gamely but unsuccessfully against domination from the South. Ruled by England yet part of Britain, the Scots have historically struggled between the desire for autonomy and independence from and the reality of assimilation and integration into Westminister.

To add yet another paradox, Wallace's people have been colonized by the Anglos yet are complicit in the colonizing project of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, ...

 

[joyfulgirl]

i do think it's interesting how much perception of statistics influences our expectations of a place. never, not once, have i ever had a bad experience in any American city. yet, someone attempted to pickpocket me in Prague and in Brussels (crafty me, i had my wallet hidden, so they got nothing). in Morocco, everyone seemed delighted to meet an American and were pleasantly surprised that i spoke (some) French. and everyone thinks i'm german (have been called "Fritz" on more than one occasion). so ... who knows?

go travel and make your own impressions.

I totally agree. Well, my apartment was broken into in NYC but for 15 years I traveled bad neighborhoods late at night on foot and by subway and was never even more than slightly uncomfortable, to be honest. Probably I was stupid a lot but I never had any problems on the streets. But I had money stolen in fabulous Berlin and the so-called American-hating mean Parisiens invited me into their homes and to eat with their families (they apparently couldn't bear the sight of a woman eating in a restaurant alone) and one family gave me the key to their apartment since they were leaving for the south of France and decided my cheap lodgings were unacceptable. I think I experienced broken stereotypes all over Europe (and hopefully broke a few of my own on behalf of Americans!).

 

[LoveTown]

You haven't been chased by a bunch of kilted men with bagpipes then!


umm

Stop yer wishful thinking, Irvine!!



Lovetown, I'm not going to dignify your amateur and naive summary with much more than...."The Brits" are Scottish, English and Welsh so your post doesn't really make much sense. Also, Scotland has the same pub culture as the north of England, Wales or Ireland. Therefore, as a Scot, I'm pretty offended by your posts. However, I won't resort to violence.


The Scottish violence is primarly sectarian (Celtic and Rangers, Catholics and Protestants) or within youth gangs. I've lived in Scotland all my life and I feel perfectly safe walking around in the wee hours. I feel far more safe here than I would down in London or Manchester, I can assure you that. You're not going to be jumped or mugged, folks.

Come to Scotland, it's great.

http://www.visitscotland.com/




EDITED to add:

I'm not saying that you're likely to be mugged in London or Manchester, I just constructed that last sentence a bit poorly.

Im sorry. Of course I wasn't being serious. I was trying to be silly. I'll just shut up and go away now. Sorry

 

[Tania]

i also remember hearing that Scots were fine, but the following people weren't:

The English -- they colonized Scotland, violently
The Americans -- responsible for a little place called Hollywood
The Australians -- responsible for a little man called Mel Gibson

Actually Mel Gibson is an American....

 

[Dismantled]

Actually Mel Gibson is an American....

really?

 

[Vincent Vega]

Maybe today he is an American, but originally Mel Gibson was an Australian.

Sorry that it happened to you in Berlin, joyfulgirl.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Sorry that it happened to you in Berlin, joyfulgirl.

Didn't change my opinion of the city--still one of my favorite places.

 

[Irvine511]

Actually Mel Gibson is an American....

actually ... Mel Gibson was born in the US but during the Vietnam war when he was a young teenager his father moved the family from the US to Australia out of protest. he grew up from then on in Australia, is an Australian citizen, and first made his name in the Mad Max movies, which are also Australian.

so he's kind of both ... but after "Passion" i'm more than willing to let Australia have him ...

 

[Tania]

Only if you'll take Russell

 

[Irvine511]

Only if you'll take Russell

okay, i will say that Russell is a) beautiful, and b) just about the best actor out there.

if he'd just stop throwing phones ...

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

When visiting Scotland be safe and wear a Ross County shirt....then you'll be my best friend forever!

Then again, you'll get attacked by Inverness Caledonian fans! Damn, can't win.



Ewens rough guide to a non violent holiday in Scotland:

1) Don't talk about Scottish football.

2) Don't refer to anything in Scotland as 'English' unless it definitely is English. England is the country south of Scotland that is, along with Scotland and Wales, a part of Great Britain. If you mean British then say 'British' not 'English'. Scottish people are British, they won't be offended but they will be very offended at being called English.

3) Tell everyone you meet how fantastic the country is!

4) Spend lots of money.

5) Tell everyone that Sean Connery is your favourite actor.

6) Don't ask "do they put the [Edinburgh] castle up specially for the festival?" (yes, I was asked that by an American tourist and I replied "well, lets put it this way, it wasn't there yesterday!")


not a definitive list, but you should survive long enough to return to your homeland.

I'll print this out should Scotland be on my itinerary next year.

 

[oby]

I've been reading this thread with interest, having been born and brought up near Edinburgh, actually I live in the town after whom the last Scottish victory against the English was named! There's a bit of history for you!!

I agree with Ewen, only us Scots are allowed to slag off Sean Connery, personally I can't stand the man.

On a more serious note, there is a Friday/Saturday night 'lets get reeking' (drunk) culture but most folk want to just let their hair down, party and enjoy themselves - me included. Most of us just want to have fun, come and join us!

The statistics are poorly prepared, taken a few years back from what I can gather, and its not bothered most folk I've spoken to.

I would be more concerned if we were higher in the more serious crime categories, I do believe they are actually falling year on year.

Personally I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, Scotland is wonderful.

 

[Tania]

okay, i will say that Russell is a) beautiful, and b) just about the best actor out there.

if he'd just stop throwing phones ...

and singing

 

[Irvine511]

and singing

yes, oh god, please make him stop!

did you see the South Park where they made fun of him?

 

[joyfulgirl]

Personally I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, Scotland is wonderful.

And home to one of my favorite writers, A.L. Kennedy.

 

[pax]

And J.K. Rowling!

 

[Irvine511]

and Irvine Welsh.

also, the Scots invented the telephone, television, modern economics, and penicillian.

 

[pax]

Please don't get a certain few post-ers who have been involved in this thread started on what the Scots invented.

David Hume was Scottish, too, so perhaps the Scots invented Enlightenment skepticism?

I got Ewen a book a while back called How the Scots Invented the Modern World.

 

[oby]

Though we do have our fair share of eejits!

 

[karls77]

Interesting article in the Guardian today about all this:

"A new report claims Scotland has a higher murder rate than America. The UN says it's the 'most violent place in the developed world'. How did it come to this? Leading Scottish novelist Irvine Welsh on the dark heart of his beloved homeland."


http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1596079,00.html

 

[foray]

I totally agree. Well, my apartment was broken into in NYC but for 15 years I traveled bad neighborhoods late at night on foot and by subway and was never even more than slightly uncomfortable, to be honest. Probably I was stupid a lot but I never had any problems on the streets. But I had money stolen in fabulous Berlin and the so-called American-hating mean Parisiens invited me into their homes and to eat with their families (they apparently couldn't bear the sight of a woman eating in a restaurant alone) and one family gave me the key to their apartment since they were leaving for the south of France and decided my cheap lodgings were unacceptable. I think I experienced broken stereotypes all over Europe (and hopefully broke a few of my own on behalf of Americans!).

Those stories are amazing; I live in a neighbourhood where people barb wire their fences - on their neighbours' side, not the street side!

I can't help thinking that you were never accosted on the streets because you probably have a lot of mana.

foray