Abortion

[CTU2fan]

No one's going to think that, and most everyone in the thread is likely feeling some amount of the same thing. It's so hard to come to terms with the reality that people just do approach and perceive this issue incredibly differently, and that the reasons for that are way more complex and intractable than anyone's 'stupidity' or 'blindness' or whatever word seems to fit the emotional shoe at the time. But you do have to come terms with it nonetheless, and part of that is recognizing that it's unreasonable to make whoever you're debating with at the moment bear the full brunt of your frustrations with things society in general is deeply divided over, for very complicated reasons. It sounds like you understand that very well.

Thanks Yolland, appreciate it.

You know, I left to pick up my kids from school (they're walkers, but IMO 1.5 miles is a bit far for a 5 year old to walk alone) and I was thinking - for some reason I think best while walking. Anyway, I was thinking about this topic, and about women I know & have known who've made the choice (to abort). Anyway, I realized I might not be as pro-life as I thought. You'd think I'd be more angry about it, but I never have been. It makes me sad, but mostly because I think it sucks that we live in a world where women's options are so poor that the best one in their eyes is to abort. I just think some people assume than many/most women are almost cavalier about it, and I can't imagine that's the case.

Yes, in a world where abortion were illegal you'd have fewer abortions. Rich folks could still get them, by travelling to countries where they were still legal (I believe that went on pre-Roe v. Wade). You'd still have the old back-alley butchers silcing women up & killing god knows how many women & girls in the process.

It just comes back to economics for me I guess. The women I know who've aborted did it basically for financial reasons. I guess the more I consider it I'm less "pro-life" and more "pro-choice/anti-abortion", and it seems like that's a pretty common view. Maybe rather than trying to ban abortions I'd rather see the government try to create an environment where abortion isn't seen by many women as the best or only choice.

 

[BorderGirl]

Maybe rather than trying to ban abortions I'd rather see the government try to create an environment where abortion isn't seen by many women as the best or only choice.

Why wait?
I think we need to be reminded that "we are" the government......"we" are the ones responsible for the climate we create and live in.
The only thing that changes laws is our change of heart.....
I've often wondered if the decision to abort a baby, or a a fetus, or however you see 'it', would be any different if babies grew on the outside of the womb, visible to our own eyes......or is it the distance created by darkness that allows us to not acknowledge/see a small life surely developing?
Would this change in biology 'change' anyone's perspective?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Why wait?
I think we need to be reminded that "we are" the government......"we" are the ones responsible for the climate we create and live in.
The only thing that changes laws is our change of heart.....
I've often wondered if the decision to abort a baby, or a a fetus, or however you see 'it', would be any different if babies grew on the outside of the womb, visible to our own eyes......or is it the distance created by darkness that allows us to not acknowledge/see a small life surely developing?
Would this change in biology 'change' anyone's perspective?

Very good points.

 

[financeguy]

Of course, those of us who are against abortion have a moral responsibilty to advocate contraception and sex education.

I fully approve of government subsidies for both the above.

In my opinion, those on the extreme right who want to curtail sex education and ban or restrict contraceptives are just as wrongheaded as those on the extreme left who demand no restrictions whatsover on abortion 'rights'.

It occurs to me that the Vatican's criminal stupidity in banning contraceptives for its flock might actually be one of the factors driving abortion rates upwards!

 

[BorderGirl]

It occurs to me that the Vatican's criminal stupidity in banning contraceptives for its flock might actually be one of the factors driving abortion rates upwards!

The part of the flock that's "choosing" to adhere/live with these Catholic teachings are not having abortions, otherwise they'd be contracepting in the first place.

 

[yolland]

I've often wondered if the decision to abort a baby, or a a fetus, or however you see 'it', would be any different if babies grew on the outside of the womb, visible to our own eyes......or is it the distance created by darkness that allows us to not acknowledge/see a small life surely developing? Would this change in biology 'change' anyone's perspective?

If women's bodies worked that way it'd be a largely moot point I think, because then a woman would be able to see instantaneously when (or even before) an unintended conception had occurred and avail herself of emergency contraception right away--it's not like anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.

 

[Irvine511]

--it's not like anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.

but many anti-abortion forces predicate themselves upon this assumption.

it reminds me of a Sarah Silverman joke on SNL. she was speaking about the new 3 day waiting period to get an abortion and she thought this was a really good idea, "because last Friday, i totally wanted an abortion, but i couldn't get one, and that was good because it turned out that i was jut really thirsty."

i remain agnostic as to the morality of abortion -- it's not something i can decide, so far be it from me to tell anyone else what to do. i think the praticality of the legality of abortion is pretty sound and society is better off for it.

i suppose what ticks me off a little are the assumptions that women get abortions without much of a 2nd thought. women agonize over these things. no woman is 6 months pregnant and walks by a Planned Parenthood clinic and stops and says, "damn! there's been something i've been meaning to do!" it's more than a little insulting to think that every woman who chooses to have an abortion regards a fetus as little more than a blob of tissue. so a little respect, on both sides, is needed, i think.

ultimately, no one wants to have an abortion. no one wants there to be abortion. but abortion just might prevent further tragedies later on i the lives of women and children. let's work on empowering women to determine when they do and do not get pregnant, as moral an issue as anything else, and then we'll talk about the morality of abortion.

 

[maycocksean]

I can understand the frustrations experienced by some of the pro-choice people in this thread. Too often discussions on abortion, whether online or "real"-world, are dominated by men even if women are nominally present, and that can be very alienating to women--particuarly when the entire thrust of the rhetoric is baby, baby, baby, as if the person it inhabits and lives off of were an inanimate husk or machine with no moral autonomy or right to control one's destiny of her own, and it's a bit too easy to overlook or dismiss the possible range of physical, psychological, social and economic consequences of forcing her to carry a child against her will. The religious issue is neither here nor there, I think; on the one hand the reality is that religious perspectives do influence how people vote whether anyone likes it or not, on the other hand scripture isn't an acceptable source for legislation in a secular country. Anyhow, above and beyond my religious reasons for not seeing abortion as murder, I also simply believe it is wrong for anyone to force women to bear children. With the capacity to carry and nurture a uniquely dependent form of life comes the moral authority to decide how to manage it, in my view.

I don't personally find that women's reasoning on this topic, from whatever side, usually differs much from that of men; however, many women can appeal to personal experience with pregnancy (whether completed or not), or even just the situation of being able to be made pregnant, and in that sense there certainly is a "different stake" in it.

Excellent, excellent points. It's really given me some new perspectives on the issue.

I suppose I understand Martha's caustic posts on this topic. I recognize that those who will never be directly affected by the issue find it easier to remain unemotional and approach the matter with the disinterested "furrowed brow." I also realize that the so-called distance from the issue doesn't automatically lead to greater insights into the issue either, and in fact being unable to relate to the painful realities of the issue can be handicap rather than a strength. I guess we all have our issues where it's hard to bear those who will never know what it feels like start pontificating. I know I get that way when it comes to issues of race.

 

[80sU2isBest]

but many anti-abortion forces predicate themselves upon this assumption.

Irvine, you don't really believe that, do you?

There's not a person alive who thinks or syas that anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.

 

[maycocksean]

I am very sorry to hear about your mother's situation. I truly am.

Thanks for your kind words. To be honest, I was a little nervous about the response. I couldn't bear the thought of my mother being savaged on this thread.

I am curious about something about Francine Rivers. Did her book make the point that women who have an abortion are damaged forever, or did she allow for God's forgiveness and healing, which would retsore the women?

She did allow for God's forgiveness and healing and some of the characters did experience that, ONCE they acknowledged their "sin."

To be honest, my issues with that book were more literary than anything else. I really felt she let the issue, the "message" overtake the need for believable characters and plausible plotline. The story is of a girl who is raped and after much struggle decides to keep the baby. You can read more about the book and my thoughts on it at www.maycockmediamix.blogspot.com. Rivers is normally an excellent writer though. . .Her Mark of the Lion trilogy is amazing, especially the first two books.

Secondly, I am curious about your mother's response. Did she say she never regretted or was always at peace? Could it be that she has experienced God's forgiveness and healing, and that is why she feels at peace? I'm not making any arguments either way, I am just very curious as to what you think she would answer to those questions.

As far as I recall her saying, she never had any regrets. I'd asked her in the context of this book I read, and I think if she had had regrets earlier she would have said something like "Well, I felt really horrible about it for years, but then I gave it over to God and now I'm fine." What I didn't get the sense from her was that this was a "mistake" or a "sin" that she might have done differently if she could have done over again, but that she felt she's been "forgiven" for. If anything, I think if she had it to do over again she wouldn't have married my dad! But in the context of her situation at the time, she believed and continues to believe that she did what she had to do.

 

[maycocksean]

Irvine, you don't really believe that, do you?

There's not a person alive who thinks or syas that anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.

Wow, you're up early! (or late, depending on your time zone, I guess)

I don't know that anti-abortion folks actually believes this way but in the overheated climate of this issue, it might sound that way.

Not to speak for Irvine or anything. . .

 

[80sU2isBest]

I suppose I understand Martha's caustic posts on this topic.

You understand the personal insults she hurled at prolifers and accusing me of having no compassion for rape victims?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Wow, you're up early! (or late, depending on your time zone, I guess)

I've been working late; client wants something by tomorrow afternoon that I just started working on at 8 pm.

I don't know that anti-abortion folks actually believes this way but in the overheated climate of this issue, it might sound that way.

I have never heard anything from anyone anywhere that would lead me to believe that he/she thinks that people get pregnant so that they can have an abortion.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Thanks for your kind words. To be honest, I was a little nervous about the response. I couldn't bear the thought of my mother being savaged on this thread.

I don't know why you'd worry about that from me. I've never savaged anyone, at least no one here.

 

[maycocksean]

I don't know why you'd worry about that from me. I've never savaged anyone.

I wasn't worried about you per se. You've always managed to maintain a graceful tone (which I know doesn't always get acknowledged since you're often taking stances that about drive people apopolectic )

It was just a more general fear that SOMEONE would launch into a "what a horrible, souless woman she is" or something. It was hard enough for me to post about her and I debated doing at all, because I didn't want to disrespect her privacy. But then I figured, it's the internet, and none of us really knows any of us anyway, so I guess it would be okay. And I felt like it would contribute something to the discussion (particularly the back and forth between you and I) and that my mom would support that.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I wasn't worried about you per se. You've always managed to maintain a graceful tone

You obviously weren't here a few days ago, were you?

 

[80sU2isBest]

since you're often taking stances that about drive people apopolectic )

I'm aware that most people here don't agree with hardly anything I say, but in real life, most of the people I know would agree with most of my stances. Remember, I live in the Buckle of the Bible Belt.

 

[maycocksean]

You understand the personal insults she hurled at prolifers and accusing me of having no compassion for rape victims?

No, that's not what I meant. I was appalled and a bit stymied by her verbal lashing myself. What I meant was I understand what MOTIVATED it. While I don't think insulting people is going to help further understanding or encourage someone to change their views, I do understand how frustrating it can be to listen to people being all cool and rationalistic about an issue that gets you hot under the collar.

I know it's MUCH harder to "remain calm" when the issue is racism for me. It hits too close to home, and I find a tone of sarcasm (and worse) creeping into my posts on that topic if I'm not careful.

I guess I'm saying it's important to acknowledge that it's easier for some us than for others to "keep it civil."

Which is not to excuse rude behavior, and that's not what I intended to do.

 

[maycocksean]

You obviously weren't here a few days ago, were you?

Actually I've been around here way too much for the past few days! It's reached the point where I've gotten so busy and so stressed that I've started just blowing HOURS here when I shouldn't. And there have been a number of interesting threads.

I think I recall you getting a "little" worked up in one of these thread, but on the whole you do a good job of avoiding the personal insults and what not.

Nobody's perfect of course, but you do all right, my friend.

 

[80sU2isBest]

No, that's not what I meant. I was appalled and a bit stymied by her verbal lashing myself.

Good, thanks for clearing that up.

I do understand how frustrating it can be to listen to people being all cool and rationalistic about an issue that gets you hot under the collar.B]

Beleve me, while arguing abortion doesn't usually get me "hot undre the collar", the thought of abortion itself does.

 

[maycocksean]

I'm aware that most people here don't agree with hardly anything I say, but in real life, most of the people I know would agree with most of my stances. Remember, I live in the Buckle of the Bible Belt.

Its the opposite for me. Most everyone I know would disagree with me. I'm a member of one of the most conservative denominations in all of Protestantism (well except for our stance on seperation of church and state. My church is pretty liberal there. But that's because historically we've always been the "odd ones" among the other Christians because we keep Sabbath on Saturday not Sunday and the Blue Laws of the 19th century were really hard on people in our denomination).

 

[80sU2isBest]

I think I recall you getting a "little" worked up in one of these thread, but on the whole you do a good job of avoiding the personal insults and what not.

Nobody's perfect of course, but you do all right, my friend.

Thanks...I try not to do the "personal insults" thing, but sometimes I do let someone know how I feel in no uncertain terms.

Well, gotta get some sleep now.

Goodnight, old pal.

 

[maycocksean]

Thanks...I try not to do the "personal insults" thing, but sometimes I do let someone know how I feel in no uncertain terms.

Well, gotta get some sleep now.

Goodnight, old pal.

I'm off to Sabbath (i.e. Friday evening) vespers as well.

Best of luck with your work project. God bless and take care.

 

[martha]

I know it's MUCH harder to "remain calm" when the issue is racism for me. It hits too close to home, and I find a tone of sarcasm (and worse) creeping into my posts on that topic if I'm not careful.

Then you understand my responses more than you may want to admit. If 80s posts were about race and one race's ability, duty, and righteous need to pass laws that adversely affected another race, I think you'd find a more common ground with those of us dealing with people like that on a gender-based topic.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

It was just a more general fear that SOMEONE would launch into a "what a horrible, souless woman she is" or something. It was hard enough for me to post about her and I debated doing at all, because I didn't want to disrespect her privacy. But then I figured, it's the internet, and none of us really knows any of us anyway, so I guess it would be okay. And I felt like it would contribute something to the discussion (particularly the back and forth between you and I) and that my mom would support that.

I meant to post earlier about this, but I too really appreciated your willingness to share your personal experience with this topic. I think that all too often we lose sight of the fact that each statistic has a real human story behind it. Unfortunately, we all have a tendency to overgeneralize and demonize the situations of those who are on the "other side" of whatever position we find ourselves taking (and this goes both ways, I think). I feel that your sharing your personal story was both powerful and courageous and that it contributed to this thread in a positive way. Thank you.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, you don't really believe that, do you?

There's not a person alive who thinks or syas that anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.

i do think there are many who think that other women think that abortion is just as legitimate a form of birth control as the pill or condoms.

 

[80sU2isBest]

i do think there are many who think that other women think that abortion is just as legitimate a form of birth control as the pill or condoms.

Oh, I agree with you there.

 

[BorderGirl]

If women's bodies worked that way it'd be a largely moot point I think, because then a woman would be able to see instantaneously when (or even before) an unintended conception had occurred and avail herself of emergency contraception right away--it's not like anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.

Thanks for your answer.
Medical lab tests are used to determine pregnancy, since it's not obvious to the naked eye early on.
This is a purely fictional question:
Babies/fetuses grow on the inside......would it make any difference in your decision to abort or not, if babies grew on the outside of the womb, visible to your own eyes?
Would this change in biology change anyone's perspective? If so how, or how not?
Anyone???

 

[BVS]

Why are you asking again? I think Yolland gave you an excellent answer. Probably a pretty universal answer as well.

 

[redhotswami]

I wasn't worried about you per se. You've always managed to maintain a graceful tone (which I know doesn't always get acknowledged since you're often taking stances that about drive people apopolectic )

It was just a more general fear that SOMEONE would launch into a "what a horrible, souless woman she is" or something. It was hard enough for me to post about her and I debated doing at all, because I didn't want to disrespect her privacy. But then I figured, it's the internet, and none of us really knows any of us anyway, so I guess it would be okay. And I felt like it would contribute something to the discussion (particularly the back and forth between you and I) and that my mom would support that.

Like everyone else, I too appreciate your sharing. FYM, although we can get into some debates, really is a community. Sure, ideas get bashed or stomped on, but I don't think I have ever seen someone say something to invalidate personal experience. Because, well, we can't. And these personal experiences humanize our ideas, and help to develop them as well. Reading about your mother really moved me. I know that while my ideas or statements in this forum may not always be supported, I know that my experiences will. And if I ever felt compelled to share something personal about my life, I am for certain it will be embraced here. Regardless of differences we have in opinions, I do feel a sort of communion with the people here.

For me, abortion is a very touchy issue. I see valid points on both sides, but I think to people on either side, my opinions on it are rather nebulous. Sometimes even I don't think my opinions make any sense. Without going through one myself, I'm really disconnected from it. However, the more I meet people who have had personal experiences with this issue, the more it brings some things into light. So thank you, for bringing some clarity for me.