What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

[dazzlingamy]

Well my point is, why mention God at all? It automatically puts 1. all other religious people on the defensive 2. makes your statement pathetic and completely bullshit to anyone who doesn't believe in God.

This is my main point which keeps getting swallowed up in amongst all these other posts! DON'T talk about God, as if you are speaking FOR ALL OF US. DON'T ASSUME we understand or ACCEPT your reasons, when you include religion as one of them. It basically runs the other way.

I also agree that most wars/conflicts have undertones of religion. It may not be the main reason, but I beleive its a reason it goes on so long.

Just picked out a few, im not very educated on most (i was always bored in lessons on wars) but these are just two that are blinding obvious about religion being a part of the war

Iraq War - How can you not see this has religion as a part of it. Sure they are bring "democracy" to the country, but the reason the terrorists are fighting so hard? The civil war? It's between different religious factions, and there is no mistaking that.

WW 2 Uhm extermination of the Jewish race?

 

[TranceEnding]

Thank you all for you comments. I do feel slightly relieved that there are other people like me out here in Free Your Mind as it sometimes can feel as if its "Free Your Mind...to God" on here.

dazzlingamy, I just wanted to express a hearty thanks to you for beginning this thread Even though it's somehow morphed into a discussion about war ... though, that's really not that surprising, in a way

Anyhooo, I know I'm only fairly new to this forum. and initially, I was kind of excited to find a place where I could read and discuss like minded people's views and stories about U2, music and just about everything else. And there's alot of that here, of course! But I must confess, I also find myself constantly befuddled, irritated, confused and on the odd occassion, just down-right furious at some of the comments that I've read. Especially about religion and all that it entails.

Personally, I do not have a label as such. I feel very drawn to Eastern philosophies, especially Buddhism. I feel a great spiritual connection through the practice of Yoga. And I'm also very interested in nature-based religions and beliefs (such as Wicca). A musician I admire greatly said once that he is a 'human becoming' .. which I thought was a really good one I also recall Bono talking about Mikhail Gorbachev on the telly during his interview with Andrew Denton on the ABC. Bono asked Mr Gorbachev whether or not he believed in God and his answer was 'I believe in the Universe'.

I really loved that

Maybe I'm just a dork, but I actually really love talking about religion and different belief systems and listening to different experiences, whether a person is a Christian/Muslim/Jew/Buddhist/Athiest/Agnostic etc .. simply for the pure joy of learning and understanding. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen too often!

There is something that I want to genuinely clarify too. Can someone tell me here whether I am wrong?! On a number of occassions, I've read various comments that seem to say that if you are not a Christian, then you must be an athiest or a skeptic?!?! Is this a huge generalisation on my part?? Please say it isn't so!! (Not that there's anything wrong with atheists or skeptics ). It's just that my understanding of atheism is not believing in a God or gods. I don't think that a Hindu, for instance, is an atheist?!

Anyway, I would be mighty pleased if there were more discussions relating to this topic, in an open-minded and positive manner, that is

 

[TranceEnding]

Sorry, I realise now I spelt atheist wrong too many times

 

[shika]

Man, this is the best thread I have read in ages ... Go, healthy discussion!

I agree with so much that has been said here. I too consider myself an atheist. (I was raised a Catholic and found I just could not reconcile the hypocracy of the Church - on so many levels. On a basic level, when a member of my family married a non-Catholic and I was told - as a 10 year old child - that that person would not be going to heaven, I remember being quite traumatised and quite frankly, TERRIFIED, at the thought of being a member of club that would so blatantly exclude others. I really believe that that is what religion does - whether it intends to or not.

It does appear to me (note the "me") that on a logical level there is no god, but perhaps there is no logic in faith? I don't mean that disrespectfully - I welcome some discussion.

I think this comment said it all, really:

I have no interest in converting people to how I view the world.

Put simply, the world would be a better, but perhaps less interesting place if more people truly followed this mantra.

 

[dazzlingamy]

TranceEnding, thanks for your comments. Atheism to my knowledge is being skeptical in beliefs about deitys/Gods. Its not believing in any of them, through the means f philisophical, scientifical and rationalism. Wikipedia has very informative articles on both Atheism and Agnosticism. I aline myself with both, in that I don't believe in Christianity, or any other major religion, but i do believe we all have a soul and sometimes I believe in rebirth.

I really like and admire Buddism, because I like that it involes inner harmony and individual knowledge rather then outward 'preaching' and point the finger at everyone else, and using scare tactics to get people to conform.

Here is a little bit on Buddism from Wikipedia


Buddhism is often described as atheistic, since Buddhist authorities and canonical texts do not affirm, and sometimes deny, the following:

* The existence of a creation, and therefore of a creator god
* That a god, gods, or other divine beings are the source of moral imperatives
* That human beings or other creatures are responsible to a god or gods for their actions

Buddhists might also be deemed atheistic in anti-Buddhist Hindu polemic, since Buddhists opposed the authority of the Vedas and of Vedic priests, and the power of the rituals of Vedic religion.

However, all canonical Buddhist texts that mention the subject accept the existence (as distinct from the authority) of a great number of spiritual beings, including the Vedic deities. From the point of view of Western theism, certain concepts of the Buddha found in the Mahayana school of Buddhism, e.g. of Amitabha or the Adibuddha may seem to share characteristics with Western concepts of God, but Shakyamuni Buddha himself denied that he was a god or divine.


anyway here are some links if anyone is interested in looking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism (another interesting value path)

 

[AcrobatMan]

all religions are out-dated..

acrobatmanism is the best and it is the only way to heaven

 

[TranceEnding]

@ dazzlingamy : Thank you ! I'll check 'em out!

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Well my point is, why mention God at all? It automatically puts 1. all other religious people on the defensive 2. makes your statement pathetic and completely bullshit to anyone who doesn't believe in God.

This is my main point which keeps getting swallowed up in amongst all these other posts! DON'T talk about God, as if you are speaking FOR ALL OF US. DON'T ASSUME we understand or ACCEPT your reasons, when you include religion as one of them. It basically runs the other way.

I also agree that most wars/conflicts have undertones of religion. It may not be the main reason, but I beleive its a reason it goes on so long.

Just picked out a few, im not very educated on most (i was always bored in lessons on wars) but these are just two that are blinding obvious about religion being a part of the war

Iraq War - How can you not see this has religion as a part of it. Sure they are bring "democracy" to the country, but the reason the terrorists are fighting so hard? The civil war? It's between different religious factions, and there is no mistaking that.

The US War with Iraq is not fought between two religious factions.

WW 2 Uhm extermination of the Jewish race? [/B]

While it's true that Hitler hated Jews and Christianity (especially Catholics), it was not a religious war. The motivation wasn't religion, on either side. Hitler also slaughtered gypsies, homosexuals and others.

 

[vaz02]

Kind of like classifying me as a member of "you all (Christians)" when I'm not Christian? Or was I not supposed to conclude that "you all" apparently includes me, since you were replying to me.

seriously though , what are you waffling about?
i never mentioned anything about " you all" or "christians" in that quote, whats so ever.


btw if you believe all the stories in the bible you are most likely to believe in the following:

The three little pigs - http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/tweenies/storytime/stories/3littlepigs/


Little red ridding hood

Toy story

and many many more.



The only book of wisdom i believe in is the TV times. Its also one hell of a read.

 

[DrTeeth]

all religions are out-dated..

acrobatmanism is the best and it is the only way to heaven

The funny thing is, that if you were to establish acrobatmanism as an actual religion, it would have the same credibility as all the other (established) religions. In the end, it's all a matter of faith right?

 

[vaz02]

The US War with Iraq is not fought between two religious factions.



While it's true that Hitler hated Jews and Christianity (especially Catholics), it was not a religious war. The motivation wasn't religion, on either side. Hitler also slaughtered gypsies, homosexuals and others.

The genocide was about religion though, denying that is almost as bad as denying it ever took place.

 

[80sU2isBest]

The genocide was about religion though, denying that is almost as bad as denying it ever took place.

The only way that it was about religion is that two of the 4 main groups he targeted were religious groups - the Jews and the Catholics. He also murdered gypsies and homosexuals. That does not make it a religious war. Hitler was not a religious man. While he made a few public statements paying lip service to Christianity, he actually hated it, as can be seen in his autobiography. He did not wage a religious war. We did not wage a religious war against him.

Now, explain to me how my view that WW 2 was not a religious war is bad at all, especially "almost as bad as denying it ever took place"?

 

[80sU2isBest]

The funny thing is, that if you were to establish acrobatmanism as an actual religion, it would have the same credibility as all the other (established) religions. In the end, it's all a matter of faith right?

Really? As credible as all the other religions? Is there historical evidence that the Acrobat Man lived and walked and spread his message around for 3 years and then was crucified?

 

[DrTeeth]

Does acrobatmanism claim that?

 

[vaz02]

Really? As credible as all the other religions? Is there historical evidence that the Acrobat Man lived and walked and spread his message around for 3 years and then was crucified?

preach brother PREACH!!

acrobats religion sounds as honest as any other

 

[80sU2isBest]

Does acrobatmanism claim that?

What does acrobatmanism claim?

(I can't believe that we can't find anything better to do on aMonday morning than discuss a religion that doesn't even exist )

 

[vaz02]

What does acrobatmanism claim?

(I can't believe that we can't find anything better to do on aMonday morning than discuss a religion that doesn't even exist )

acrobatsism founded itunes and purchased nike.......

 

[Snowlock]

What do you do when you heart breaks over people dying, and feel there is no just cause at all for it? Where is my voice in amongst the hatred filled shouts of the religious to one another?

My question is, why do you care then? If you don't believe, which is fine, then what difference does it make if someone lives for 20 years or 50? In the grand scheme of things, it's barely an eyeblink in the history of the universe. If we're all just wormfood anyway, why put all this effort in caring where you belong anyway. It's pretty much over before it's even begun.

Are Bush and Bin Laden, Hezbollah & Israel using religion as a mask for other motives, almost certainly to one extent or another and they're pretty complicated motives involving security, money, nationalism, and culture. But I think instead of resenting what's going on because you can't travel, you should try and develop a less self centered view. It may open you up to your own answers to the questions you ask.

 

[yolland]

seriously though , what are you waffling about?
i never mentioned anything about " you all" or "christians" in that quote, whats so ever.

yeah , I wish Christianity never existed .

so wot ? i dont want you all killed , i just want you all to reconsider

[/QUOTE]

btw if you believe all the stories in the bible you are most likely to believe in the following:

Where did I say I "believed all the stories in the Bible"? Anyhow, this seems like a complete straw man argument. You're implicitly defining religious people, for your own purposes, as people who "believe all the stories in the Bible" according to "believe" as defined by you, which I gather from your Grimm's et al. analogy means thinking Yup, the world really was created in 7 days and Noah really did take 2 of every species in existence onto some boat with him.

Why not just ask--instead of mockingly pouncing on the most extreme literalist concept of "belief" possible and using that as cause for ridicule? This is no better and makes no more sense than suggesting that if you're an atheist, then here you might want to check out this link about Pol Pot or Stalin, because I think you'll find much to approve of in there.

WW 2 Uhm extermination of the Jewish race?

You just said it right there--extermination of the Jewish race. The Nazis killed atheist Jews, Jewish converts to Christianity, Jews of whatever (non)belief system imaginable precisely because they defined "Jew" racially--that was what eugenics was all about. There was also a political rationalization that Jews were treasonous subversives who had deliberately ruined the German economy through "control" of the banks, had "stabbed Germany in the back" at Versailles through behind-the-scenes string-pulling, were fomenting Communist revolution, etc., but obviously those arguments had nothing to do with religion either. Hitler couldn't have cared less about the religious (non)beliefs of whichever Jews, least of all German Jews, who were the most secularized in the world at the time. His notion of the nature of "the Jewish threat" was not about Judaism as a religion.

Now, if you're talking about European anti-Semitism in the last millennium before that, then you would have a point; that certainly had a strongly religious slant. And fair enough, that history helped create a climate that made Hitler's anti-Semitism more acceptable to German voters--although he still had to downplay it when campaigning to avoid being written off by repectable middle-class Germans as a crank, and even when he did incorporate it into his speeches, it was of course along those "race science" and "political subversives" lines he genuinely believed in, which were acceptable to many voters precisely because they had that "modern," scientific, secular, none-of-that-embarrassingly-old-fashioned-"Christ-killer"-stuff ring to them.

Nonetheless, it stretches the concept of "religious war" to the point of meaningless arbitrariness to say this thus made his "war" against the Jews religious. And why even call the Holocaust a "war," anyway? The Jews were not combatants, they were not engaging in violent attacks against Germany, and their own loathing of Hitler had absolutely nothing to do with his being from a Catholic background or whatever.

(I can't believe that we can't find anything better to do on aMonday morning than discuss a religion that doesn't even exist )

Since as you can see, we collectively have so much potential to work out all the world's Big Problems and Most Pressing Questions together...

 

[Greenlight]

Anyhooo, I know I'm only fairly new to this forum. and initially, I was kind of excited to find a place where I could read and discuss like minded people's views and stories about U2, music and just about everything else. And there's alot of that here, of course! But I must confess, I also find myself constantly befuddled, irritated, confused and on the odd occassion, just down-right furious at some of the comments that I've read. Especially about religion and all that it entails.


Anyway, I would be mighty pleased if there were more discussions relating to this topic, in an open-minded and positive manner, that is

I'm in the same position here, having recently joined. I find a lot of the threads very thought-provoking but I'm amazed how dogmatic some people are with little resepect for other's points of view. From my own perspective I would call myself a humanist but I haven't ruled out the existence of a God.
I remember discussing this issue at length when I was at university -some 25 years ago now mind but I did a degree in Medieval and Modern European History. The general consensus at the time was that very few wars if any were solely caused by religion; in most cases they were due to various other, often complex factors. Obviously the Crusades are mentioned by many as a religious war but they were more a series of military expeditions directly authorised by the Pope. Interestingly the Christian fighters were believed to receive special recognition and awards from God for taking the cross against the Infidel. Religion was used though by many leaders at the time to justify their actions - King Philip of Spain for instance stated that the Anglo/Spanish War and the use of the Spanish Armada was in the name of religion as a result of Elizabeth 1's excommunication by the Pope for her Protestant Reformation. The Pope went so far as to promise the blessings of a martyr's reception in heaven to anyone who would assassinate Elizabeth -sounds familiar in this current climate?
What I think is also distressing is the number of people who have been persecuted and murdered over the centuries by their own government and authorities directly in the name of religion. Whilst a few heretics may have posed some threat to the King/ State etc, in the main they were a minority who just because their faith conflicted with that of the country at the time led to their exile, death etc.

 

[nbcrusader]

Another FYM thread on atheism. 139 responses. I’ve perused much of the thread, but really don’t see many points presented about why atheism stands on its own. Is it really its own philosophy, or is it a rejection of religion? And if there is a rejection of religion, why is the tendency to be a rejection of Jesus Christ?

 

[vaz02]

Ok back to the point of the entitled question

My dads side of the family aint religious at all , my mums side originate from Ireland and so i assume they are catholic. My mum and dad don't believe in that bollocks so they have never pressurised me into doing so either, so its kind of stuck.

During school i had RE lessons ( religious education) and the teachers i had seemed like they were preaching , and they put religion across in the way like it was the be all and end all, which is defo aint for me.

I just cant believe people still believe this medieval way of thinking , it really is primitive stuff really. BE good and you go to heaven , be bad and you go to hell. Sure be a bad boy and the bogey man will get you, Honestly come on that is pathetic surely.

Also people believe in all these different gods which is fine by me but then they fight each other in the name or honour of these gods which is puzzling because what god could possible forgive someone for murder or violence?

Then there is the " god told me to " bullshit, im not religious but how do you people feel when you hear this type of stuff ? im annoyed because its stupid.

I reject Jesus Christ more than any other probs because Christianity seems more accessible to where I live , I don't see many other religious circles other than Muslim and Jewish. Im from Britain btw.

Also the stories in the bibles some people claim to be true which just makes me think " how old are you ? 5 ? " the bread and fish gig is stupid and Noah's ark is a bit lame too. I know some chapters in the bible aint true.

 

[shart1780]

LOLz.

Us religious folk believe in a bunch of bullocks.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Re: Re: What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

My question is, why do you care then? If you don't believe, which is fine, then what difference does it make if someone lives for 20 years or 50? In the grand scheme of things, it's barely an eyeblink in the history of the universe. If we're all just wormfood anyway, why put all this effort in caring where you belong anyway. It's pretty much over before it's even begun.

Are Bush and Bin Laden, Hezbollah & Israel using religion as a mask for other motives, almost certainly to one extent or another and they're pretty complicated motives involving security, money, nationalism, and culture. But I think instead of resenting what's going on because you can't travel, you should try and develop a less self centered view. It may open you up to your own answers to the questions you ask.

Firstly, I care because I think its a pretty pathetic waste of time to fight any war, but to have a war filled with religious undertones, to have the Christinaity vs Muslim or Judaism vs Muslim continually going on, it just to me, so UTTERLY POINTLESS as both sides believe in something that is a figment of their imagination, and instead of playing that 'im right you're wrong you're going to hell blah blah' bullshit, actually work out why the hell we keep fighting for? Ok the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is obviously to do mostly with the taking of Palestian lands, but why is Lebanon involed? Why do they care so much about the Israelis? It wasn't their land they were "given". So why do they care? Because of their religion? I can see that more believiably then any other answer.

And of COURSE i care about people's lives. I feel like I live for my LIFE. I don't think about the afterlife, I don't think i'm going to heaven or hell, so you know what, my life, my lifespan is now! So why would I want people to die at 20 or 50 years when I believe is this is all you get. Have fun while the ride lasts, and hope that it lasts a long time. I think live you're life the best you know how, have fun, take time to enjoy the simple things of life, work on yourself rather then trying to convert everyone else to your views and you've lived a good life.

And lastly, yes it may be slightly self centred to be worried about travelling, but there are no selfless people in the world, and im not going to pretend i'm on of them. Obviously i'm more worried about the lives of innocent people caught up in these conflicts, but I LOVE and LIVE to travel, and it disappoints me that there are places in MY WORLD that I can't visit.


I also believe that it doesn't have to be wo factions of religious people fighting to make it a religious war. It can always be one rightous religious people trying to convert through force or "smothing effect" people who don't want their advances.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Another FYM thread on atheism. 139 responses. I’ve perused much of the thread, but really don’t see many points presented about why atheism stands on its own. Is it really its own philosophy, or is it a rejection of religion? And if there is a rejection of religion, why is the tendency to be a rejection of Jesus Christ?

I never had the opportunity to reject Jeebus but the caricature of bitter ex-believers with issues with their parents may linger through the debate.

I just cant believe people still believe this medieval way of thinking

Pre-medieval, much more primitive, for how could humanity stare into their existence and inevitable mortality without imbuing it with the idea of something more, our fear of death spawned it.

 

[Irvine511]

And if there is a rejection of religion, why is the tendency to be a rejection of Jesus Christ?

well, i'd first say that it's because we are all (pretty much) Westerners, but perhaps the question should be: why does Christianity inspire so many atheists? what is it about Christ that is so off-putting that breeds such a strong reaction?

this agnostic reacts much more to Christians than to Christ, btw.

perhaps it's the messengers?

 

[verte76]

Perhaps it looks more like a rejection of Jesus Christ because these people specifically rejected Christianity after growing up in it. In fact, that's exactly what I did, prior to my conversion, of course. That's why I can understand this feeling, I had some big time issues with the church I grew up in.

 

[blueeyedgirl]

well, i'd first say that it's because we are all (pretty much) Westerners, but perhaps the question should be: why does Christianity inspire so many atheists? what is it about Christ that is so off-putting that breeds such a strong reaction?

this agnostic reacts much more to Christians than to Christ, btw.

perhaps it's the messengers?

Well, this completely and utterly lapsed Catholic certainly has issues with religion's messengers.

I'm surprised there's been no discussion about Frisbeetariantism, U2's own religion, unless people choose to believe that frisbees don't exist.....

 

[80sU2isBest]

well, i'd first say that it's because we are all (pretty much) Westerners, but perhaps the question should be: why does Christianity inspire so many atheists? what is it about Christ that is so off-putting that breeds such a strong reaction?

I'm not going to address why people hate Christians, because we've all been through that a million times. But i will address why I think people don't want to follow Christ and hate and ridicule him and his message. Here are some reasons I've thought of.

(1)This is an "independent" world. From day one, most of us are taught to stand our own, make our own way in the world, to not rely on anyone but ourselves. Society reinforces that at every turn. The Gospel is the total opposite; it's about dependence - on God. Christ wants people to rely on him. Christ says "you CAN'T do it on your own...you need me", but we have a hard time accepting that.

(2)No one wants to give up control. People want to be in control of their own lives, do exactly what they want to do. Christ's way is to let God take control. No one wants to submit to someone else's control.

(3)The world says "what's right for you may not be right for some" (sorry, I just had to quote the lyrics from the Different Strokes theme song). To the world, there is no absolute right and wrong; what's right or wrong is completely subjective. No one wants to be told he's wrong. People don't want to think of themselves as sinners. That is not how the Gospel is at all. The heart of the Gospel is Christ's love as evidenced by his scarificial death on the cross, specifically for those who are lost in sin - that is, all of us. And according to the Gospel, you cannot benefit form this sacrifice until you come to a point where you realize you are a sinner and that you can't earn your way into a relationship with God.


Everyone knows that it does bother me when people ridicule Christ and his message. However, at this point, it should not surprise me. Christ himself said that that the world would hate him, his message and his followers.

 

[A_Wanderer]

It's scarce surpise that dictators can craft cults of personality when there is such an intrinsic mechanism in the human mind to surrender individuality to the mob.