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Old 12-12-2004, 02:33 PM   #196
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Originally posted by thacraic
Accussing me of judging people? Look, stating what the Bible says on things (Yes BVS) is not judging.
I did a pretty decent job documenting the Greek words in its original form. Paul shose a word that is associated with male prostitution. Something that was commonplace in the temples of the day was prostitution in the temple.

SO if the words chosen by Paul to be used in Timothy and Corinthians demonstrate that this was not a condemnation of homosexuality, but a condemnation of selling sex with boys exactly what the next earliest translation of the passage implies.

How can it be claimed that the text of Corinthians and Timothy show clearly a link between the old and New Testament that there is a condemnation of homosexuality?

If the translation is not even 50 years old that uses the word homosexual how can we believe that that was the intent of the author, when there were OTHER WORDS that clearly would have defined that it was about homosexuality, rather than an economic transaction?

If you want to stand up and say you are basing your ideas on the Bible, great! I am all for it. Blind faith that the translation you are reading in English actually means what the authors intended in another language would open the door to mistaken interpretation.
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Old 12-12-2004, 02:42 PM   #197
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Originally posted by thacraic

To me it seems like what you are driving at is this. I have a right to believe that the Bible is God's word. I have a right to think that people are wrong if they say they are following the Bible while they in turn make exceptions about it left and right and then justify these exceptions by saying it is also written by man.
Funny, do you feel this way about the passages written about women wearing veils and speaking in church?

I have the right to believe that the New Testament passages that have been translated have been translated with a modern taint to them.

If you believe it is clear that homosexuality is what Paul is condemning in the NT, then how can you justify divorce, a topic that Jesus VERY clearly spoke out about?

Well, todays society holds divorce as acceptable. Is this wrong? Should we be protesting in the streets, in ralleys that were led by the Churches of Boston against Divorce as they did over gay marriage?

It is ALL about picking and chosing. It is what led to the splits in the church and the fractioned denominations that represent Christianity.
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Old 12-12-2004, 03:20 PM   #198
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Nothing personal Dreadsox, but is anyone really pro-divorce?
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Old 12-12-2004, 03:24 PM   #199
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Nothing personal Dreadsox, but is anyone really pro-divorce?
Nothing personal, but, if the Word is the WORD why do we apply it inconsistently?

The churches were willing to ralley against homosexual marriage.

Why aren't they out protesting against divorce law?

We pick and choose. Jesus CLEARLY spoke about divorce, yet not so clearly on homosexuality.

The church is so willing to fight the fight against homosexuals on texts from the new testament that honestly appear to have been mistranslated.
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Old 12-12-2004, 03:37 PM   #200
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Nothing personal, but, if the Word is the WORD why do we apply it inconsistently?

The churches were willing to ralley against homosexual marriage.

Why aren't they out protesting against divorce law?

We pick and choose. Jesus CLEARLY spoke about divorce, yet not so clearly on homosexuality.

The church is so willing to fight the fight against homosexuals on texts from the new testament that honestly appear to have been mistranslated.
While I will admit that many people take their stance too far on the gay issues, we can tell that many divorces are caused by unfaithfulness, which Jesus described as an exception. There's plenty of talk in the Christian community about all these Hollywood bozos who divorce over "irreconcilable differences", and people who take their chances of getting married not because their relationship is strong, but because they consider divorce a practical option. This leads into all the sex before marriage talk, and I'm sure you've heard it all. You have to stand on your foundation - a strong relationship - before you take that to the next level.

There is very little public pushing and shoving, and I haven't heard of a single "get married and get divorced because it's fun" special interest group. There are tons of special interest groups who approve/oppose the gay marriage issue, and both sides have jumped to stupid conclusions that are unfounded. We don't know that Jesus would approve of it or not, nor do we know whether men are attracted to men (and vice versa) by some "gay gene." In my opinion, a belief unproven is either a jump to conclusions, or a leap of faith.

It's all about who's going to stand against your beliefs, and who's going to stand for you. Nobody is protesting against divorce law, probably because nobody is protesting for it. Probably vice versa. I bet that if a "divorce for fun group" arised and got political power, there would be tons of Christians and churches that march against them. I know it probably doesn't sound right, but that's how society seems to work.
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Old 12-12-2004, 03:45 PM   #201
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You are missing my point I guess.....

Maybe I need to rethink how I am explaining it.
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Old 12-12-2004, 03:59 PM   #202
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About Word for the Word being applied inconsistently, I could tell you one thing I know for sure: nobody is perfect, we're all bad examples of what Jesus was really about.
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Old 12-12-2004, 04:16 PM   #203
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Thoughtfully here I sit.....

The two passages from the New Testament no longer condemn homosexual, but male prostitution, possible in the temple itself.

The Four Gospels, which chronical the teachers of Jesus are blank on the topic.

Sodom and Gommorah is not about homosexuality buyt about the customs involved in the treatment of a guest.

This leaves Leviticus.....with two references on calling for DEATH if one is a homosexual.

Hmmmm.....what else have we disreguarded from Leviticus that is Part of the Torah Law?
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Old 12-12-2004, 04:23 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
While I will admit that many people take their stance too far on the gay issues, we can tell that many divorces are caused by unfaithfulness, which Jesus described as an exception. There's plenty of talk in the Christian community about all these Hollywood bozos who divorce over "irreconcilable differences", and people who take their chances of getting married not because their relationship is strong, but because they consider divorce a practical option. This leads into all the sex before marriage talk, and I'm sure you've heard it all. You have to stand on your foundation - a strong relationship - before you take that to the next level.

There is very little public pushing and shoving, and I haven't heard of a single "get married and get divorced because it's fun" special interest group. There are tons of special interest groups who approve/oppose the gay marriage issue, and both sides have jumped to stupid conclusions that are unfounded. We don't know that Jesus would approve of it or not, nor do we know whether men are attracted to men (and vice versa) by some "gay gene." In my opinion, a belief unproven is either a jump to conclusions, or a leap of faith.

It's all about who's going to stand against your beliefs, and who's going to stand for you. Nobody is protesting against divorce law, probably because nobody is protesting for it. Probably vice versa. I bet that if a "divorce for fun group" arised and got political power, there would be tons of Christians and churches that march against them. I know it probably doesn't sound right, but that's how society seems to work.


Do you realize how high the divorce rate is? This has nothing to do with Hollywood or "divorce for fun". It's people picking and choosing for their own needs. People aren't asking for a ban on divorce because that would effect 50% of the church.
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Old 12-12-2004, 04:24 PM   #205
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




Do you realize how high the divorce rate is? This has nothing to do with Hollywood or "divorce for fun". It's people picking and choosing for their own needs. People aren't asking for a ban on divorce because that would effect 50% of the church.
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Old 12-12-2004, 04:26 PM   #206
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I just ran across this:

[Q]The Bible says many things, Jerry, but above all it has introduced me to the Jesus that you and I both call "Lord." The Jesus that I meet in scripture, however, never blessed the status quo or sought to suppress change. He rather called his disciples to step beyond their security systems into a barrier-free humanity. He reached out to all of those who were made outcasts by the prevailing religious norms of his day. Those of us who seek to be his disciples must do no less in our day.

My study has convinced me that homosexuality is a given part of the broad spectrum of humanity, so I, as a Christian, could never equate it with sin as you so glibly do.

Before you go on the offensive to cite the destructive behavior that you attribute to homosexual people, Jerry, let me say that there is certainly some homosexual behavior that is sinful. But maybe you haven't noticed that there is also some heterosexual behavior that is sinful. Pimping and prostitution are primarily heterosexual activities. I regard any sexual activity that is promiscuous or predatory, forced or uninvited to be evil or sinful to use your words. It matters not to me whether it is the behavior of heterosexuals or homosexuals. It is still destructive behavior and Christians must be clear about that.

But I also regard that sexual activity which expresses love, which is lived out in a monogamous commitment, which is part of a relationship of trust and dedication, which does not violate one's word given to another person and which issues in life, to be blessed by its own fruits and thus to be ultimately holy. I believe that the benefits and sanctity of marriage must be extended by both church and society to faithful homosexual partnerships and the sooner the better. Not to do so is to continue the pattern of a killing prejudice based upon uninformed ignorance.

[/Q]

Bishop Spong Speaks my belief.
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Old 12-12-2004, 04:27 PM   #207
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Thoughtfully here I sit.....

The two passages from the New Testament no longer condemn homosexual, but male prostitution, possible in the temple itself.

The Four Gospels, which chronical the teachers of Jesus are blank on the topic.

Sodom and Gommorah is not about homosexuality buyt about the customs involved in the treatment of a guest.

This leaves Leviticus.....with two references on calling for DEATH if one is a homosexual.

Hmmmm.....what else have we disreguarded from Leviticus that is Part of the Torah Law?
Great job Dread, but people aren't going to be able to let go of their prejudices that easily.
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Old 12-12-2004, 04:30 PM   #208
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Thanks for posting that stuff Dread. I love it; it speaks for me.
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Old 12-12-2004, 06:08 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




Do you realize how high the divorce rate is? This has nothing to do with Hollywood or "divorce for fun". It's people picking and choosing for their own needs. People aren't asking for a ban on divorce because that would effect 50% of the church.
Of course I do, and it's ridiculously high. I've heard divorce being preached in church so much more than homosexuality. I was citing examples about how people get divorces for the wrong reasons. Banning divorce is not the answer, I'm not enforcing that in any way. I'm not sure what I said that made you think that I think divorce is rare.
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Old 12-12-2004, 06:16 PM   #210
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Great job Dread, but people aren't going to be able to let go of their prejudices that easily.

indeed. we always need someone to feel superior to.

this is where the root of where much homophobia -- take Eminem -- comes from. when you're a disenfranchised white male in Detroit, and you haven't yet made it, you need someone to feel superior to.
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