Universality of God... - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-09-2004, 03:43 PM   #61
The Fly
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 262
Local Time: 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

A God like this would not let his children be abandoned.
I agree that God won't let a single one of his children slip through the cracks, and somehow he's going to make sure that he reaches all of them, regardless of their location, nationality, etc... (like you say, who knows how exactly he's working).

The only thing that you wrote that gives me pause is the phrase "The God I know".
I bring this up because I think that we have to be careful not to create a false representation of God in our minds.

For example, if someone said that they loved you because you like to breed ostriches and you firmly stand up for the right to smoke in public buildings, I'm guessing you'd probably have to say that that person doesn't really love you because they don't really know you at all. They're simply in love with a version of you that they've invented in their mind.

I'm not saying that you're guilty of this when it comes to your view of God (I have to admit that sometimes I've been guilty of it), but I think that, just like all of us, God wants us to love him for who he truly is, regardless of whether or not we're able to fully appreciate or understand everything about his character at the time.

Hypothetically, if it was actually true that God's nature included some things that make us uncomfortable (wrath, judgement, etc...), then we would have two options:
1) we could say, "Even though I don't understand these aspects of God's character, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he only gets angry or passes judgement when he has fully exhausted every recourse that love offers and has a perfectly just reason for it", or
2) we could say, "This doesn't mesh with my expectations of who God is, so I'm going to stick to believing that God must be the way that I think he is."

I think this places a certain level of responsibility on us to try to learn more about God and to try to spend time with him to get to know him better so that we're not accidentally worshipping what the Bible describes as an "idol" that we've created in our mind. In other words, when we search to learn who God really is, we should not be looking for evidence that can support our own expecations while discarding any contradictory evidence, but rather we should be resolved to look for the whole truth regardless of whether or not it matches up with who we believe or want God to be.

To the best of my understanding, I believe that God's nature includes both love and wrath (as I think the Bible indicates), but that God allows love to trump wrath in the end for everyone who is willing to turn away from sin, trust in Jesus to pay for their sins on their behalf, and allow God's Spirit to enter their heart and help them become more and more like him. The only reason why wrath still has a place is because there are apparently some people who will reject God's love and refuse to turn from sin to the bitter end, therefore leaving God with no other recourse but to satisfy justice through the only other means possible: judgement.
__________________

__________________
TheFirstBigW is offline  
Old 07-09-2004, 04:29 PM   #62
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,673
Local Time: 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by TheFirstBigW

I agree that God won't let a single one of his children slip through the cracks, and somehow he's going to make sure that he reaches all of them, regardless of their location, nationality, etc... (like you say, who knows how exactly he's working).

The only thing that you wrote that gives me pause is the phrase "The God I know".
I bring this up because I think that we have to be careful not to create a false representation of God in our minds.

For example, if someone said that they loved you because you like to breed ostriches and you firmly stand up for the right to smoke in public buildings, I'm guessing you'd probably have to say that that person doesn't really love you because they don't really know you at all. They're simply in love with a version of you that they've invented in their mind.

I'm not saying that you're guilty of this when it comes to your view of God (I have to admit that sometimes I've been guilty of it), but I think that, just like all of us, God wants us to love him for who he truly is, regardless of whether or not we're able to fully appreciate or understand everything about his character at the time.

Hypothetically, if it was actually true that God's nature included some things that make us uncomfortable (wrath, judgement, etc...), then we would have two options:
1) we could say, "Even though I don't understand these aspects of God's character, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he only gets angry or passes judgement when he has fully exhausted every recourse that love offers and has a perfectly just reason for it", or
2) we could say, "This doesn't mesh with my expectations of who God is, so I'm going to stick to believing that God must be the way that I think he is."

I think this places a certain level of responsibility on us to try to learn more about God and to try to spend time with him to get to know him better so that we're not accidentally worshipping what the Bible describes as an "idol" that we've created in our mind. In other words, when we search to learn who God really is, we should not be looking for evidence that can support our own expecations while discarding any contradictory evidence, but rather we should be resolved to look for the whole truth regardless of whether or not it matches up with who we believe or want God to be.

To the best of my understanding, I believe that God's nature includes both love and wrath (as I think the Bible indicates), but that God allows love to trump wrath in the end for everyone who is willing to turn away from sin, trust in Jesus to pay for their sins on their behalf, and allow God's Spirit to enter their heart and help them become more and more like him. The only reason why wrath still has a place is because there are apparently some people who will reject God's love and refuse to turn from sin to the bitter end, therefore leaving God with no other recourse but to satisfy justice through the only other means possible: judgement.
First of all, how did you know I breed ostriches? And yes I often wonder if the ladies love me just because of that.

I think you're assuming too much here but correct me if I'm wrong. I do believe God judges. I'm not recreating anything. God is not just in the manner of which justice is defined down here on earth and I think that's where so many people have a problem. They think I did this, and I worshipped that way, and I believed in this, but you're allowing THIS man into heaven next to me. That's impossible! This man didn't break bread the way I did, this man didn't belong to my religion, he didn't say the same prayers I did. God judges, but not like you and I, God can read hearts something we can't. We are far too feeble to understand how God works and why. There is no one on this earth that can tell me that he knows with all certainty who around him are going to heaven and who aren't. No one.

The reason I believe God to be universal is that we are all God's children, not one of us will be ignored. Yet there's not one universal religion, there's not one and only one means by which everyone of God's children on this planet are exposed to God's word. For anyone to think their religion is the only one and that the rest of the population will enjoy wrath is arrogant. We are all allowed the chance to recieve or reject, and there isn't one religion on this planet that covers that ground.
__________________

__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 07-09-2004, 06:48 PM   #63
Refugee
 
BostonAnne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 2,052
Local Time: 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


First of all, how did you know I breed ostriches? And yes I often wonder if the ladies love me just because of that.



Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar



I think you're assuming too much here but correct me if I'm wrong. I do believe God judges. I'm not recreating anything. God is not just in the manner of which justice is defined down here on earth and I think that's where so many people have a problem. They think I did this, and I worshipped that way, and I believed in this, but you're allowing THIS man into heaven next to me. That's impossible! This man didn't break bread the way I did, this man didn't belong to my religion, he didn't say the same prayers I did. God judges, but not like you and I, God can read hearts something we can't. We are far too feeble to understand how God works and why. There is no one on this earth that can tell me that he knows with all certainty who around him are going to heaven and who aren't. No one.

I'd rather spend my time trying to be more tolerant and less judgmental of others. I'd rather spend my time helping the poor and the needy. Though that might not be spreading God's word through mouth, it is certainly spreading God's word through deed. One of the best feelings I've ever had is cooking for a soup kitchen through my Church. It just felt so good to be helpful. I really believe that God loves you, so as Bono said at the 46664 concert - what's the problem?
__________________
BostonAnne is offline  
Old 07-09-2004, 07:07 PM   #64
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 01:13 PM
I can't believe BVS actually breeds ostriches.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 07-09-2004, 08:20 PM   #65
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,288
Local Time: 12:13 PM
This is the way I feel about the universality of God and those who believe their way is the only way: You go ahead and believe in a God who doesn't want the rest of us in his Kingdom, and I will believe in one who will want you in his. It's really that simple, in my mind.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 07-09-2004, 08:58 PM   #66
Refugee
 
BostonAnne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 2,052
Local Time: 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
This is the way I feel about the universality of God and those who believe their way is the only way: You go ahead and believe in a God who doesn't want the rest of us in his Kingdom, and I will believe in one who will want you in his. It's really that simple, in my mind.
I love how you worded that anitram!
__________________
BostonAnne is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 01:35 AM   #67
The Fly
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 262
Local Time: 12:13 PM
It appears that the majority consensus here is that the belief that Jesus is the only way to God ("No one comes to the Father except through me." [John 14:6b]) seems arrogant, intolerant, etc...

I guess all that I can do is ask: What if it is actually true?

If it is true, would that mean that God is also arrogant and intolerant, or would it mean that we're relying too much upon our own understanding of things rather than God's?

If the Bible is actually truth and was directly inspired by God, then that means that God is asking us to believe a number of things that may not make much sense to us.

Now why would he do this?

I think that God does this kind of thing on purpose to teach us to simply trust in him and rely upon his wisdom even if it goes against everything that our physical minds are telling us.

If a pilot is flying a plane through zero visibility and an airport tower tells him to do something that doesn't make sense to him, he will do it anyway because he understands that the person in the tower has access to much more information and is in a far better position to guide him than his own senses which are able to perceive nothing beyond his limited perspective of the blank windshield in front of him.

What I believe God wants us to do is, despite everything that we understand, despite everything that our minds are telling us, he wants us to simply trust him and accept what he says. He wants to create beliefs in us based upon complete faith in him, not upon our own ability to fully understand what's going on.

If we fully understand everything, then that means that we fully see, and if we fully see, then there's no room for faith (a belief in things not seen) to act.
__________________
TheFirstBigW is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 02:33 AM   #68
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,673
Local Time: 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by TheFirstBigW
It appears that the majority consensus here is that the belief that Jesus is the only way to God ("No one comes to the Father except through me." [John 14:6b]) seems arrogant, intolerant, etc...

I guess all that I can do is ask: What if it is actually true?

If it is true, would that mean that God is also arrogant and intolerant, or would it mean that we're relying too much upon our own understanding of things rather than God's?

If the Bible is actually truth and was directly inspired by God, then that means that God is asking us to believe a number of things that may not make much sense to us.

Now why would he do this?

I think that God does this kind of thing on purpose to teach us to simply trust in him and rely upon his wisdom even if it goes against everything that our physical minds are telling us.

If a pilot is flying a plane through zero visibility and an airport tower tells him to do something that doesn't make sense to him, he will do it anyway because he understands that the person in the tower has access to much more information and is in a far better position to guide him than his own senses which are able to perceive nothing beyond his limited perspective of the blank windshield in front of him.

What I believe God wants us to do is, despite everything that we understand, despite everything that our minds are telling us, he wants us to simply trust him and accept what he says. He wants to create beliefs in us based upon complete faith in him, not upon our own ability to fully understand what's going on.

If we fully understand everything, then that means that we fully see, and if we fully see, then there's no room for faith (a belief in things not seen) to act.
I honestly think we're saying the same thing except you think, given your definition of god, is that there will be a large population left behind because they didn't get to know Jesus. You have yet to show me where it says that you HAVE to know Jesus. It says through him, but one of my best friends went to college through his father which he never knew. Your definition still abandons a large population of the world and I'm just trying to figure out how you feel that is just.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 03:56 AM   #69
The Fly
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 262
Local Time: 12:13 PM
Perhaps you've forgotten my response to that concern from a few days ago in this thread:

"I can't speak for all Christians, but I've never said that anyone who hasn't had an opportunity to hear about Jesus throughout their lifetime will be doomed to go to Hell. Obviously, that wouldn't be fair.

Perhaps between their death and judgement day, God gives someone like that the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus and therefore him before it's all said and done. Who knows?"



As for the belief itself, if the statement "No one comes to the Father except through me" does not mean that everyone has to go through Jesus to get to God (similar to his "gate" analogy), then what do you perceive that it means?
__________________
TheFirstBigW is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 05:32 AM   #70
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 04:13 AM
I want to spend the rest of my life living on a farm with bvs breeding ostriches and I can breed alpacas and we can round up our herds and discuss human frailty.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 01:42 PM   #71
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,673
Local Time: 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I want to spend the rest of my life living on a farm with bvs breeding ostriches and I can breed alpacas and we can round up our herds and discuss human frailty.
...and where is this farm?
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 01:46 PM   #72
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 04:13 AM
preferrably somewhere far away from people.

and cities.

and cars.

i'm not fussy really.

...is the location your only objection?
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 01:48 PM   #73
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,673
Local Time: 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by TheFirstBigW
Perhaps you've forgotten my response to that concern from a few days ago in this thread:

"I can't speak for all Christians, but I've never said that anyone who hasn't had an opportunity to hear about Jesus throughout their lifetime will be doomed to go to Hell. Obviously, that wouldn't be fair.

Perhaps between their death and judgement day, God gives someone like that the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus and therefore him before it's all said and done. Who knows?"



As for the belief itself, if the statement "No one comes to the Father except through me" does not mean that everyone has to go through Jesus to get to God (similar to his "gate" analogy), then what do you perceive that it means?
So then that goes for everyone. So everyone who was born Muslim, Jewish, etc and never really got a chance to know Jesus will be given this chance?

It says through me and that's all it says. Just like my analogy of the son going to college through his father's action, but he never knew his father.

We're going round and round here so I'll bow out and leave this thread alone. Take care.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 01:50 PM   #74
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,673
Local Time: 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
preferrably somewhere far away from people.

and cities.

and cars.

i'm not fussy really.

...is the location your only objection?
Alright I'm there, when do we leave?
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 02:17 PM   #75
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 04:13 AM
I'm not doing anything tomorrow, but you said you would bow out of this thread so I better stop hijacking it.
__________________

__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com