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Old 10-06-2013, 12:44 AM   #571
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[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/05/world-us-government_n_4047613.html] will fall just like Rome?
Rome didn't fall - it moved east and lasted another 1000 years...
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:29 AM   #572
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Are you suggesting we fire some missiles to regain our standing? I'm not sure I understand the argument that the US is "weaker" simply because we didn't bomb the hell out of Syria...

Weakness usually implies the lack of power/ability to do X. The US certainly has both, and chose not to use it. That's not weakness - that's strategy.
I never said that. I only posted that article to show what the rest of the world thinks of our government and how embarrassing it is.

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Rome didn't fall - it moved east and lasted another 1000 years...
Yes, but some conservatives, like Pat Buchanan, often refer to the decline of Rome - the city itself - as America's future. My dad is a wacky conservative who eats up Buchanan's books and agrees with his comparison. I just find it funny that there are people out there (and sadly there are plenty) who believe our current decadence and multiculturalism will destroy us, as it did to Rome, but that is not the case here.
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:12 AM   #573
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Yes - this is going to be a mess.

Perhaps someone like Nathan or INDY would be best at answering for the Republicans, as I am a supporter of the single-payer, universal coverage option.
I'm not sure what a "Republican" response would be. I can only speak for myself, and I'm not sure how to solve the problem of health care, which goes back *at least* to the 1970s, as documented by Michael Moore in SICKO.

I continue to believe that the structural inequalities of a free-market economy when applied to health-care don't work, because no matter which way you slice it, the sick and poor stay sick and poor.

People chafed at my citation of the NY Times article for its discussion of the ways in which the costs of buying into the ACA via Medicaid were too onerous. Here's another story that breaks down in even greater detail how Medicaid is usually the second or third largest expense for the states currently, and how the states will be forced in three years to carry a much larger financial burden, and for some states, those costs are untenable. (TX, for example, will have to pay an additional $2B over ten years to cover Medicaid costs, once they start paying "only" 10%.)

http://www.governing.com/news/federa...-medicaid.html

Taxation alone will not solve the problem, because the core structural problems of a free market healthcare system whose costs balloon regularly are not being addressed. (It's no secret that insurance companies jacked up rates on their members over the past few years, as the ACA came closer -- so, while one poster may say that costs are slowing, that's only because they had been out of control in recent years.)

In any event, raising taxes on the poorest states to get them to pay for medical care will only force those states to cut other primary services. Raising taxes to cover the cost of another tax will, in essence, be a form of double taxation, particularly on the middle class, who will be most adversely affected, as they are most vulnerable to companies cutting back hours.

Again, no one is dealing with the structural inequities of cost. Instead, we have a system that is becoming increasingly unjust, and a government that is only throwing fuel on the fire. Something must be done, but the misnamed Affordable Care Act is not a solution. Someone needs to bring the health care industry in line.
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:43 AM   #574
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The United States of Intransigence
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Old 10-06-2013, 12:41 PM   #575
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I suppose some good can come from all of this. Perhaps the tea party will cause the republican party to self destruct from within, leading to a split between the moderate republicans and their psychotic brethren. That would be nice.
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Old 10-06-2013, 03:04 PM   #576
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(TX, for example, will have to pay an additional $2B over ten years to cover Medicaid costs, once they start paying "only" 10%.)
My apologies. My numbers were erroneous.

TX will be expected to pay $27B over ten years starting in 2017.
That's $2.7B a year.
With a B.
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Old 10-06-2013, 03:25 PM   #577
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And yet, some poorer, Republican states like Kentucky (far poorer than the 2nd most populated state in the country, Texas) think the expansion of Medicare and the ACA is good for their people, and also good for their economies.


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It’s no coincidence that numerous governors — not just Democrats like me but also Republicans like Jan Brewer of Arizona, John Kasich of Ohio and Rick Snyder of Michigan — see the Affordable Care Act not as a referendum on President Obama but as a tool for historic change.

That is especially true in Kentucky, a state where residents’ collective health has long been horrendous. The state ranks among the worst, if not the worst, in almost every major health category, including smoking, cancer deaths, preventable hospitalizations, premature death, heart disease and diabetes.

We’re making progress, but incremental improvements are not enough. We need big solutions with the potential for transformational change.

The Affordable Care Act is one of those solutions.

For the first time, we will make affordable health insurance available to every single citizen in the state. Right now, 640,000 people in Kentucky are uninsured. That’s almost one in six Kentuckians.

Lack of health coverage puts their health and financial security at risk.

They roll the dice and pray they don’t get sick. They choose between food and medicine. They ignore checkups that would catch serious conditions early. They put off doctor’s appointments, hoping a condition turns out to be nothing. And they live knowing that bankruptcy is just one bad diagnosis away.

Furthermore, their children go long periods without checkups that focus on immunizations, preventive care and vision and hearing tests. If they have diabetes, asthma or infected gums, their conditions remain untreated and unchecked.

For Kentucky as a whole, the negative impact is similar but larger — jacked-up costs, decreased worker productivity, lower quality of life, depressed school attendance and a poor image.

The Affordable Care Act will address these weaknesses.

Some 308,000 of Kentucky’s uninsured — mostly the working poor — will be covered when we increase Medicaid eligibility guidelines to 138 percent of the federal poverty level.

PricewaterhouseCoopers and the Urban Studies Institute at the University of Louisville concluded that expanding Medicaid would inject $15.6 billion into Kentucky’s economy over the next eight years, create almost 17,000 new jobs, have an $802.4 million positive budget impact (by transferring certain expenditures from the state to the federal government, among other things), protect hospitals from cuts in indigent care funding and shield businesses from up to $48 million in annual penalties.

In short, we couldn’t afford not to do it.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/27/op...acare-now.html

It's a matter of political will. Read the whole thing.
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Old 10-06-2013, 04:19 PM   #578
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(the 2nd most populated state in the country, Texas)
Do you think that this might have something to do with TX' expected costs of $2.7B a year for ten years?

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have an $802.4 million positive budget impact (by transferring certain expenditures from the state to the federal government, among other things)
So the already-strapped federal government is going to absorb additional costs of close to a billion dollars -- and this just from KY alone?

Gotcha. Tell me how that makes the ACA actually affordable. 'Cause the plan of the KY governor (a Democrat, by the way) sounds like he's just kicking the can back to the broke federal government. There is no act of political or moral will in simply passing the costs on to a government that can't afford it. And this does nothing to address any of the issues relating to the cost of health care, or the fact that neither the government nor its poorest citizens can afford it.
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Old 10-06-2013, 04:46 PM   #579
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I object to your characterization of a colossal nation-state like Texas -- which ranks 50th, btw, in citizens with health coverage -- as a poor, cash-strapped, rural, agrarian state.

I also object to the characterization of the federal government as "broke."

We can discuss what causes health care costs to rise, and we can discuss how much the ACA will help that or not, but we can't dispute the fact that it is an attempt to do something to bring the US up to par with the rest of the world while addressing costs.
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Old 10-06-2013, 04:50 PM   #580
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I object to your characterization of a colossal nation-state like Texas -- which ranks 50th, btw, in citizens with health coverage -- as a poor, cash-strapped, rural, agrarian state.
Well that settles that. I guess I missed where I characterized the state that way?
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Old 10-06-2013, 04:54 PM   #581
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I object to your characterization of a colossal nation-state like Texas -- which ranks 50th, btw, in citizens with health coverage -- as a poor, cash-strapped, rural, agrarian state.

I also object to the characterization of the federal government as "broke."

We can discuss what causes health care costs to rise, and we can discuss how much the ACA will help that or not, but we can't dispute the fact that it is an attempt to do something to bring the US up to par with the rest of the world while addressing costs.
Oh, I agree it's an attempt. However, it doesn't do anything to address costs, it simply absorbs them. And the fundamental problem with our government is that it has flung too much money that it can't afford at too many problems both foreign and domestic for too long without actually sitting down and figuring out how to actually address structural issues. We simply can't afford this anymore. It doesn't solve problems; at best it slows them, at worst it magnifies them.
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:48 PM   #582
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Nowhere in any of nathan's posts do I see suggestions of what should be done. Which is sort of typical of the Republican approach to healthcare.
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:54 PM   #583
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Nowhere in any of nathan's posts do I see suggestions of what should be done.
And I was very clear about that. This is a complicated issue with no easy solution, given the various factors that are at play. However, unlike Republicans, I'm not defending the current system either. I've been very clear about my belief that healthcare should not be subject to free market enterprise. And if there was a way to make health care free and universal, I'm all for it.

From what I've read, the public option may have been the best one. IMHO
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:58 PM   #584
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The public option is yet another Democratic Party idea, in fact isn't that what Obama ran on in 2008? Again, it isn't the left that's deadset against that approach.
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:59 PM   #585
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The public option is yet another Democratic Party idea, in fact isn't that what Obama ran on in 2008? Again, it isn't the left that's deadset against that approach.
It was, and then he started backing way off of it. It was present in the first version of the bill that came out of the House in 2009, but it eventually disappeared.
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