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Old 10-04-2013, 09:43 AM   #496
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Both parties are a farce and the interaction between them is somehow 10 times worse. You'd think people would have figured out by now that both options are a dead end and choose another one, but we're in a bad cycle of defensive voting to cancel out the greater of two evils, so we can't actually choose a good option.
Unfortunately, many Americans are either too lazy or too careless to start looking into other political parties. Some may rightfully believe voting for a third party would be a waste, but others have no clue about the other parties out there. They either don't care, don't want to care, or are too afraid to care. I'm seeing a lot of people like this and it scares and upsets me.
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:57 AM   #497
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Unfortunately, many Americans are either too lazy or too careless to start looking into other political parties. Some may rightfully believe voting for a third party would be a waste, but others have no clue about the other parties out there. They either don't care, don't want to care, or are too afraid to care. I'm seeing a lot of people like this and it scares and upsets me.

I do agree that one of the overlooked things is how much blame for this lies at the feet if the American people, especially those in the "suicide caucus" districts. Certainly their influence has been assisted by gerrymandering, whipped into states of fear and loathing by Fox News, and given easy targets for whatever rage they feel (and reading conservative websites, rage seems to be the overriding emotion). Fortunately, this is a minority (30 house seats?) within an out-of-power party. It's not most Americans. It's not even most Republicans.

In a representative democracy, we get the government we deserve. We the people are partly to blame.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:04 AM   #498
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^

Of the 56% or whatever number AEON keeps citing - how many of them truly believe that the ACA imposes death panels, mandatory suicide counselling for grandmas, Obama will make them get rid of their own doctor and replace him/her with another one, etc?

Sheer ignorance is a great contributor to that number.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:16 AM   #499
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I do agree that one of the overlooked things is how much blame for this lies at the feet if the American people, especially those in the "suicide caucus" districts. Certainly their influence has been assisted by gerrymandering, whipped into states of fear and loathing by Fox News, and given easy targets for whatever rage they feel (and reading conservative websites, rage seems to be the overriding emotion). Fortunately, this is a minority (30 house seats?) within an out-of-power party. It's not most Americans. It's not even most Republicans.

In a representative democracy, we get the government we deserve. We the people are partly to blame.
There are plenty like that, but the ones I'm talking about who really don't care or are lazy. Tell them there's a government shutdown and its hurting the country, and they'll say, "Oh really? Oh OK" and then change the subject, like the issue is akin to one of the sinks in the office bathroom that isn't working well. I think some people are scared to think or give a damn. I don't know why, but they are.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:25 AM   #500
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As a side note, I think you'll see the GOP fold like a stack of cards on the debt ceiling.

My husband is an American economist at a global bank and he was just telling me yesterday that the amount of disgust on Wall Street at the Tea Party and the GOP is reaching levels he's never seen before. Not a chance that these corporate overlords will permit the Tea Party to sink the markets. You can count on it.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:46 AM   #501
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Because the Democrats simply DO NOT HAVE the equivalent of a Tea Party caucus on the left. Why is that so hard to accept for you, AEON? I've asked you over and over again to point out a group of individuals on their side who have as much say in governance from a minority position as the Tea Party has and you have just glossed over it.
Okay, so the Democrats don't have a Tea Party. Now what? The Tea Party came into existence (or so they claim) as a response to out of control government spending. Also, they initially (or so they claim) leaned toward a more libertarian-style of government - meaning less of it. This filled a void in the Republican Party (a void created by the over-spending Republicans of the 00's). They were elected on these principles.

Look, I'm not necessarily an advocate of the Tea Party (or any political caucus/party), but they are doing exactly what they were elected to do - control government spending. I don't see what's so shocking.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:48 AM   #502
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Unfortunately, many Americans are either too lazy or too careless to start looking into other political parties. Some may rightfully believe voting for a third party would be a waste, but others have no clue about the other parties out there. They either don't care, don't want to care, or are too afraid to care. I'm seeing a lot of people like this and it scares and upsets me.
It's my hope that Social Media will help us elect people without large spending budgets and that have no party affiliation at all.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:53 AM   #503
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^

Of the 56% or whatever number AEON keeps citing - how many of them truly believe that the ACA imposes death panels, mandatory suicide counselling for grandmas, Obama will make them get rid of their own doctor and replace him/her with another one, etc?

Sheer ignorance is a great contributor to that number.
That number was from a recent CNN poll. I provided a link. Most other polls have had similar results since 2010.

I'm not arguing the people are correct in their thinking, I was merely responding to the implication that the vast majority of the people wanted ACA - and the Tea Party wasn't allowing them to have it.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:55 AM   #504
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Not a chance that these corporate overlords will permit the Tea Party to sink the markets. You can count on it.
What are they going to do - shoot 'em?
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:56 AM   #505
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I don't see what's so shocking.
This isn't about shock. It's about the damage they are doing to this country to prove this political point, it's about the hypocrisy of their platform.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:58 AM   #506
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^

Of the 56% or whatever number AEON keeps citing - how many of them truly believe that the ACA imposes death panels, mandatory suicide counselling for grandmas, Obama will make them get rid of their own doctor and replace him/her with another one, etc?

Sheer ignorance is a great contributor to that number.


also, of that 56%, how many wish it was a true single-payer system?

i think the ACA is a workable compromise that will take years to get right, but they got it right in Massachusetts.

i myself would prefer a single payer system. but i also realize that might not be feasible in the US at present. so i'd rather get people covered by hook or by crook, to bring down costs and reduce the insanity of people being denied coverage for preexisting conditions, getting kicked off insurance for getting cancer or HIV, and overrun ERs filled with uninsured people who have the flu.

an ounce of prevention ...
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:03 AM   #507
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My husband is an American economist at a global bank and he was just telling me yesterday that the amount of disgust on Wall Street at the Tea Party and the GOP is reaching levels he's never seen before. Not a chance that these corporate overlords will permit the Tea Party to sink the markets. You can count on it.

this has been the fundamental tension in the GOP since the 1980s, when big business joined forces with the "moral majority" in order to win elections. it's essentially religious figures telling their congregations that God wants them to vote for people who will make other people richer, and abortion and gays and guns.

Reagan could handle both ends of that coalition. Bush 1 not so much. Bush 2 actually did a great job in the beginning, with his unfunded tax cuts and true blue Christian persona and crusades against unholy Muslims.

it's two very, very culturally different groups of people, not easy to mix. can you see Sheldon Adelson at a church picnic? the Koch Brothers doing Christian charity work in Africa?

we're finally seeing those chickens come home to roost.

Palin was the warning shot, Cruz is the real deal.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:09 AM   #508
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This isn't about shock. It's about the damage they are doing to this country to prove this political point, it's about the hypocrisy of their platform.
I agree. And this is one of the problems with "democracy." The politicians that are refusing to pass the budget with ACA in it are solidifying their own re-election back home. They are opportunists, nothing more. That is the nature of the politician - they do whatever it takes to get elected/re-elected.

If tomorrow, 90 percent of their district really wanted ACA - they would flip-flop (see my Austin Powers post).

And I do not believe for a second that the Democrats would behave any different if roles were reversed. Especially with the current media circus environment. These people are politicians first, a member of a political party second.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:12 AM   #509
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And I do not believe for a second that the Democrats would behave any different if roles were reversed. Especially with the current media circus environment. These people are politicians first, a member of a political party second.

you're free to believe that, in the way that people are free not to believe in climate change.

but there's no evidence that supports what you believe.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:28 AM   #510
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but there's no evidence that supports what you believe.
The Democrats have led shutdowns in the past. While they are not exactly the same - this is an important fact when claiming one of the party's "would never do X."

I suppose the only real way to prove this is to have the Republicans take back the Presidency and pass laws without a single Democrat vote. Are you willing to give that experiment a chance?
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