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Old 02-02-2008, 05:08 PM   #1
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[ *split off from Campaign Debate Discussion thread ~y.* ]





Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

Lives have been saved because of waterboarding.


can you show me when, where, and how?

if you'd like, i can give you mountains of false confessions brought about by waterboarding that resulted in wasted time, money, and manpower.
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Old 02-02-2008, 05:55 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
can you show me when, where, and how?
WE HAVE THE TAPES TO PROVE IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




oops
never mind

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Old 02-03-2008, 12:43 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




can you show me when, where, and how?

.
here's one story and that is suffcient for me:

'Waterboarding broke al Qaeda captive in 35 seconds,' says former CIA agent defending torture;

By WILLIAM LOWTHER - More by this author »

Last updated at 10:16am on 12th December 2007



Use of the interrogation technique known as "waterboarding" was approved by the White House and gets results, a former CIA agent admitted yesterday.

The technique - which simulates drowning - was used against Al Qaeda captives with success, John Kiriakou told a U.S. TV network.

The one-time CIA interrogator is the first to speak out about the "torture" methods that have earned President George Bush's administration worldwide condemnation.

Scroll down for more...


Reconstruction: To show how inhumane the practice is, a U.S. volunteer is waterboarded, as described by John Kiriakou
Read more...

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The White House has denied torture is used on terror suspects, but Mr Kiriakou said waterboarding "broke" one stubbornly silent Al Qaeda recruiter after just 35 seconds.

Waterboarding involves wrapping plastic or fabric around a detainee's face then pouring water over the top until it is forced up the nose and down the throat to simulate drowning.

Suspects are told they will die if they do not talk.

And although the technique is supposed to be low-risk, critics say it can result in long-lasting psychological damage, injury to the lungs and even, in extreme cases, death.

Mr Kiriakou told the ABC network that he had fought an "intellectual battle" in his mind over the use of waterboarding, and had concluded that it is justified as it saves lives by preventing terror attacks. "This isn't something done willy-nilly," he added. "This was a policy made at the White House, with concurrence from the National Security Council and Justice Department."

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Defending waterboarding: Former CIA agent John Kiriakou on ABC News

Mr Kiriakou told how waterboarding was used on Zayn Abu Zubaida, the first high-ranking Al Qaeda member captured after the September 11 attacks in 2001.

Abu Zubaida was seized in a gun battle in Pakistan in the spring of 2002. For weeks he refused to talk and remained ideologically zealous, defiant and unco-operative. Then he was flown to a secret CIA prison - believed to be in Afghanistan - and strapped to a board with his feet in the air.

Cellophane was wrapped around the Al Qaeda man's face and water was forced up his nose and into his throat to make him think he was drowning.

The suspect lasted only 35 seconds before he broke.

"It was like flipping a switch," said Mr Kiriakou.

"From that day on, he answered every question. The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.

"Like a lot of Americans, I'm involved in this internal, intellectual battle with myself weighing the idea that waterboarding may be torture versus the quality of information that we often get.

"I struggle with it.



Tortured: Abu Zubaydah broke down in 'less than 35 seconds'
"At the time, I felt that waterboarding was something that we needed to do."



Mr Kiriakou said he did not interrogate Abu Zubaida, but learned the details from colleagues.

His account came as the U.S. Congress began questioning CIA director Michael Hayden yesterday about why the agency destroyed at least two videotapes of controversial interrogations.

Many senators believe it was done to hide evidence of illegal torture that could have been used against CIA agents in a war crimes tribunal.

General Hayden, speaking to the closed-doors Congress hearing yesterday was expected to say that CIA lawyers ruled that the interrogations were legal and the tapes were destroyed in 2005 to protect the identities of CIA employees who appear on them.

The torture scandal is likely to become a major issue in next year's presidential election.

Abu Zubaida - who says he was coerced into making false confessions - was eventually moved to the U.S. prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where he is now held in solitary confinement.

He is likely to be tried next year on terrorism charges and the CIA expects that he will spend the rest of his life in custody.

Mr Kiriakou, a 14-year veteran of the CIA who worked in both the analysis and operations divisions, left in 2004 and works as a consultant for a private Washington-based firm.


--------


so this saved lives, and if you want to give me the argument that these guys would gleefully behead our soilders and piss on there corpses and you feel that pouring water over their faces for 35 seconds is cruel and inhumane you're living in a warped universe my dear sister.
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:57 AM   #4
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You are living in a warped universe sister...

This article proves nothing. If this is all you have than this argument is worthless...

What details does this article expose?
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:39 AM   #5
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And yet diamond, you insist you're Christian.
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:05 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

What details does this article expose?
Quote:
"It was like flipping a switch," said Mr Kiriakou.
Quote:
"From that day on, he answered every question. The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
And yet diamond, you insist you're Christian.
?

Are Christians somehow supposed to be unwilling to torture? Are you questioning the faith of untold numbers of firm believers in the history of Christendom? Drawing a line in the sand between real religion (which the claimant invariably does subscribe to) and corrupted or weakened religion is a frivilous enterprise.

If torture didn't work then there would be no dilemma, at what point does the protection of a terrorist exceed the protection of innocent people, what is the burden of proof, how can there be a practical means of stopping it?

Diamond makes the point that waterboarding has gotten results (from a biased source with an agenda), rather than ad hominem attacks against him perhaps somebody could make a point that there was no oversight and accountability, that the institutional corruption of the intelligence services makes it open to mistake at best, but more likely deliberate abuse. All the evident flaws in giving a gang like the CIA carte blanche to abuse human rights around the globe.

I don't have much sympathy for a tortured terrorist, but from the perspective that bad press costs lives having torture in the blind spots of procedure is going to cost lives. There is no moral absolute against torture and any human being is capable of inflicting pain on others, out of sadism or utility.
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond



'Waterboarding broke al Qaeda captive in 35 seconds,' says former CIA agent defending torture;


yes, the best people to ask about this are those people who are practicing it and trying to defend their actions.

seems like conservatives would be really interested in this ocean front property i've got in southern Kansas ...

and if you think waterboarding is just pouring water on someone's face, think again. it's correct name is "Simulated Drowning," and it's been used for centuries, most especially by Stalin, the Viet Cong, and Pol Pot.
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
?

Are Christians somehow supposed to be unwilling to torture? Are you questioning the faith of untold numbers of firm believers in the history of Christendom?
Yes.

Yes.
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:57 PM   #10
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I don't think the faith is really what's being questioned.

I think understanding and intelligence is being questioned.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:05 PM   #11
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I think that anyone who says he's Christian, yet supports the torture of any living creature, sincerely missed the point of Jesus.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:09 PM   #12
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Exactly. I think they believe in Jesus Christ, they just don't get what his point was.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:09 PM   #13
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Agreed.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:44 PM   #14
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but if Jesus and God are the same

the Old Testament is full of things that are on par with or worse than torture

in the name of the right side? (what ever that means)
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:54 PM   #15
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I'm talking about Christians, without any excuses.
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