Time to pull out? How many dead will be the last straw? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-29-2003, 05:36 PM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
sulawesigirl4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,416
Local Time: 02:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly
i can see where you'd draw that conclusion, but there are other branches of the military to go into if you're only volunteering because of economic situation. peace corps is a good example.
actually, Peace Corps pays virtually nothing and probably wouldn't accept you if you had dependents to feed and clothe. It's more or less purely volunteer, with your physical needs being met at a very basic level. Oh and Peace Corps is definitely not affiliated with the military.
__________________

__________________
"I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me." - Bono

sulawesigirl4 is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 05:46 PM   #17
War Child
 
Strato Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Modesto, CA
Posts: 857
Local Time: 12:56 AM
I think Iraq is a dead cause. With hatred these people were taught to feel against America, I think Americans, nor innocent Iraqis, will ever be safe again in Iraq.
__________________

__________________
Strato Edge is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 06:20 PM   #18
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 11:56 PM
U.S. Soldier Slain in Baghdad Grenade Attack

Explosive is dropped from an overpass in the capital. Meanwhile, relatives of Iraqis killed during a raid Sunday mourn the victims.
By Alissa J. Rubin
Times Staff Writer

July 29, 2003

BAGHDAD An assailant dropped a grenade from a Baghdad highway overpass onto an Army vehicle Monday, killing one U.S. soldier and wounding three others.

In another part of Baghdad, relatives of people killed in an unsuccessful raid by U.S. soldiers looking for Saddam Hussein mourned their loved ones.

The death of the soldier from the 1st Armored Division brought to 50 the number of U.S. soldiers killed in hostile attacks since President Bush declared an end to major combat May 1.

The tactic of dropping explosives from a highway overpass onto convoys of military vehicles is frequently used, said Army Capt. Jeff Fitzgibbons, a spokesman.

"It's actually a pretty good tactic because it's hard to respond to," Fitzgibbons said. "It gives the attackers a chance to escape, especially if they drop it on the last vehicle."

Fitzgibbons said that in some cases, the U.S. military has spotted a group of people on an overpass and has been able to prevent an attack. In Monday's attack, two of the wounded suffered only minor injuries and were back on duty late in the day. The third was still being treated.

A second U.S. soldier was killed Monday in a road accident near the southern city of Nasiriyah.



In the eyes of many Iraqis, the U.S. soldiers, who are facing a constant threat of attacks, are increasingly inclined to shoot first and ask questions later.

In the wealthy Mansour neighborhood west of the Tigris River, where Sunday's unsuccessful raid in pursuit of Hussein occurred, neighbors gathered on street corners to discuss it. Iraqis said at least four civilians were killed and five injured, three of them seriously, when U.S. soldiers fired at their cars.

In one car, a Catholic family was on its way to church. Another carried members of a Kurdish family dropping off a letter to be hand-carried by a friend to a relative in Europe. The identities of the occupants of a third car were not known, witnesses in the neighborhood said.

Mazan Albert, 35, his brother Alyas Thamir Albert, 40, and their mother, Clementine, were on their way to church when the shooting occurred. Mazan was killed; his mother and brother were wounded and taken to a military hospital.

Clementine's sister, who came to the family's house Monday, said that although the extended family lived in different neighborhoods, members usually went to Sunday services together. It was only after church services that she realized something had happened. She declined to give her name.

She thought it unlikely that Mazan Albert, who was driving, would have run a checkpoint the explanation from the U.S. military for the shooting.

"I don't imagine he would refuse to stop," she said. "He was a quiet, simple man."

As a child, she said, he had been hit by a car and had lost the lower part of his right leg. His car was specially outfitted for someone missing a limb.

Alyas Thamir Albert, his older brother, has worked as a translator for the Americans mostly in Taji, north of Baghdad. His work badge, which family members showed to a reporter, has a picture of a serious-looking young man with short brown hair.

Clementine's sister said no one in the family had been told where her injured sister and nephew had been taken.

Rabin Hazim, a neighbor who came to comfort the family, said the Americans hadn't blocked the road until after the shooting.

No one had claimed Mazan Albert's body by Monday afternoon. With multiple gunshot wounds one to the head and two in the shoulder he lay in a bloodied white shirt and worn blue pants on the floor of Yarmouk Hospital's makeshift morgue.

Next to him were two other victims of the shooting, who also had suffered multiple gunshot wounds.

A fourth victim, a boy of about 15, had been brought in with a gunshot wound to the head. He was referred to a neurosurgery center, but Dr. Jamil Ibrahim, a general surgeon at Yarmouk, said the boy could not have survived.

A Pentagon official who spoke on condition of anonymity said the Iraqis were in two cars that failed to stop at U.S. military checkpoints. Troops fired on both cars, he said.

"Of course that's a very dangerous thing to do, when you fail to stop at a checkpoint," the official said. "And to that extent, they represented a threat to our troops, who acted in accordance with their inherent right to self-defense."

No one was killed in the car carrying members of Mohammed Abdulrahman's family, who are Kurdish Shiite Muslims. They said they had supported the U.S. presence in Iraq until Sunday.

"At the beginning, I was so happy the Americans came," said Nadhim Nariman, a cousin, who was standing next to Abdulrahman's hospital bed, where he lay unconscious after abdominal surgery.

"Now I feel their presence is dangerous for us. Yesterday we prepared our weapons and we wanted to retaliate against the Americans, but our oldest cousin said no. But our cousin had this accident for nothing. Don't the Americans know that we, the Shiite Kurds, were the biggest enemies of Saddam, the most dangerous to him?"

Abdulrahman's 23-year-old son, Firaz, who was in the car when the shooting occurred, said his father was just turning down a side street when they were hit by gunfire. They had not realized they were driving into a forbidden zone.

"We didn't even see the Americans when it first happened," he said as he fanned his father to cool him in the sultry afternoon air.

Firaz, who returned to Baghdad from his army service in northern Iraq after the war, said that after having survived the war, he wondered whether he would survive the peace.

"They are thinking Saddam is here, but they are shooting innocent people. Maybe they are afraid and so they are shooting madly in this way," he said.







This is THE problem and it is getting worse everyday.
U. S. Soldiers are upset with all the killings and are reacting, alienating the people we are supposed to be liberating.

After Saddam is long gone the killings will continue. It is similar to Viet Nam, we are losing the people!
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 06:27 PM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Lilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: back and to the left
Posts: 8,523
Local Time: 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4


actually, Peace Corps pays virtually nothing and probably wouldn't accept you if you had dependents to feed and clothe. It's more or less purely volunteer, with your physical needs being met at a very basic level. Oh and Peace Corps is definitely not affiliated with the military.

but when you think about it, people who are signing up for the military just cos of their economic status are going to be young men and women most likely without families of their own. so, no dependents.

i know they don't pay much - it's a corps but there are other benefits to it (as i'm kinda sure you're familiar with).

i know that if i was looking to get into a corp because i needed a job, i'd be less likely to sign up for say...the marines than say...the peace corps. does that make more sense?

oh and sorry it sorta seemed like i was mushing the peace corps with the military, but i was just talking about corps in general


i'm just saying that there are options to this
__________________
Lilly is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 06:32 PM   #20
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
sulawesigirl4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,416
Local Time: 02:56 AM
Maybe so, but while the GI bill will pay a good chunk (if not all) of your college bills, most Peace Corps volunteers are expected to have already finished college. And the only financial aid we get is a 15% cut on any Perkins Loan we may have had to take out to get our degree. I know plenty of kids who have joined the military because of the money for college. Don't know anyone who has been in Peace Corps that did if for monetary reasons. I'm probably going to be making something in the neighborhood of $100 a month, if even that.

So yeah, I guess I don't see the comparison at all. But of course I'm biased because I would never join the military and I am joining the Peace Corps.
__________________
"I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me." - Bono

sulawesigirl4 is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 07:50 PM   #21
War Child
 
Leeloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: running to stand still
Posts: 694
Local Time: 07:56 AM
Normal

Quote:
Originally posted by Strato Edge
I think Iraq is a dead cause. With hatred these people were taught to feel against America, I think Americans, nor innocent Iraqis, will ever be safe again in Iraq.
Very true, and that's why it's hopeless. It will take several generations to deprogram the hatred for the US out of them, if ever. We don't have that much time. I think a lot of westerners are under the illusion that if we give them food, medicine and fix them a school, they'll like us!! But that isn't the way they think. Some of the guys who were attacked were guarding an elementary school.

Back to the Vietnam analogy: how many of you have said 'we can't pull out now or they'll win!' Wasn't that the rationale behind staying in Nam? Didn't we finally see it was unwinnable and leave anyway? Nearly 60,000 lives were lost, and countless more ruined, and for what? I don't want to see this happen again
__________________
Leeloo is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 07:57 PM   #22
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 633
Local Time: 07:56 AM
Comparing this war to Vietnam is crazy. THOUSANDS were killed in Vietnam. I think the total number of deaths in this conflict on the US side is like 170 or something.

As I stated earlier, once Saddam is gone things will get on track.
__________________
wolfwill23 is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 08:52 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Lilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: back and to the left
Posts: 8,523
Local Time: 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Leeloo

Very true, and that's why it's hopeless. It will take several generations to deprogram the hatred for the US out of them, if ever. We don't have that much time. I think a lot of westerners are under the illusion that if we give them food, medicine and fix them a school, they'll like us!! But that isn't the way they think. Some of the guys who were attacked were guarding an elementary school.
it's not hopeless. "deprogram the hatred" is an attitude that is hopeless. westerners should be giving food and medicine and fix them a school, but we should also be trading with them and including them in the global market. i don't know what you're talking about here, since we had complete sanctions on iraq and hadn't given them much of anything until right before the war. so the "illusions" that the westerners were "under" were fictitious anyway.


Quote:
Back to the Vietnam analogy: how many of you have said 'we can't pull out now or they'll win!' Wasn't that the rationale behind staying in Nam? Didn't we finally see it was unwinnable and leave anyway? Nearly 60,000 lives were lost, and countless more ruined, and for what? I don't want to see this happen again

like wolfwill said, THOUSANDS were dying in vietnam. we aren't trying to WIN this...we're trying to get rid of saddam and help iraq set up a functioning government. we're trying to avoid a lot of vietnam mistakes with this one.
__________________
Lilly is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 10:23 PM   #24
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,295
Local Time: 02:56 AM
To me, the comparison with Vietnam has nothing to do with numbers.

I think it's more accurate to say that Iraq will quite potentially if not probably become to America what Lebanon was to Israel. How long were the Israelis there? 18 years. Surrounded by people who initially tolerated them, then turned hostile as each day passed by.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 10:34 PM   #25
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Lilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: back and to the left
Posts: 8,523
Local Time: 01:56 AM
i understand where you're coming from - that the occupation could seem like we'll be there forever.


but we have to remember that we declared war in what...march 30th? that means we've been there for almost exactly 4 months...it seeems a little premature to compare it to a 20 year occupation.
__________________
Lilly is offline  
Old 07-29-2003, 11:13 PM   #26
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,295
Local Time: 02:56 AM
Lilly, I said there was the potential it would become such a situation. I wasn't comparing the current scenario to it.

I don't think any reasonable person could make the claim that you'd get out of there in anything less than many years from now. And what happened to Afghanistan? The place is absolutely reckless with lawlessness, it's a total mess that we don't hear anything about anymore. All this talk of democracy in places that have never experienced it is premature. It's not happening in the near future, IMO.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 07-30-2003, 12:38 AM   #27
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Lilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: back and to the left
Posts: 8,523
Local Time: 01:56 AM
anitram -

i probably should have more clearly split my reply in two, or quoted leeloo. i truly apologize for any misunderstandings
__________________
Lilly is offline  
Old 07-30-2003, 01:42 AM   #28
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 08:56 AM
Lilly:

remember that even non-critical people to this war like Sting2 think that the US forces will stay there 10 years or longer

Klaus
__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 07-30-2003, 03:18 AM   #29
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Lilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: back and to the left
Posts: 8,523
Local Time: 01:56 AM
but even if we're occupying for that long - it shouldn't be holding up like this - one can't foresee that american soldiers will still be victims of snipers with such constancy.

i vaguely remember bush saying that he was planning on removing troops when everything was clear, but keeping some members of the military there for peacekeeping.

what if the us started bringing in un police to help peace keep?


at any rate, the fighting is not like vietnam...and while i see there are similarites and i think that if a certain point is reached, the people will HAVE to take to the streets again ~ but i just don't think that now is the time per se.
__________________
Lilly is offline  
Old 07-30-2003, 03:36 AM   #30
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rono's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 6,163
Local Time: 08:56 AM
It is not possible to pull out now, it would be a diseaster for the Iraq people. But maybe it is time to think about the homecoming soldiers. They will be partly traumatized i guess. they did not got the flowers and happy faces they epected to get, and promised by the Bush gang.
__________________

__________________
Rono is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com