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Old 02-26-2004, 07:36 PM   #136
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Originally posted by AvsGirl41


It's hard to judge when I haven't seen the film...for all I know it could be overplayed...but I have to wonder at comments like these. As many posters have already pointed out, flogging and cruxifiction are horrible, horrible punishments. Do people believe that because it was Jesus and because it was in the Bible, that it was somehow cleaner? Less violent?

People proudly put crosses up on churches, in their homes, around their neck. People were nailed to crosses, people died on them. Jesus was one of those people. Shouldn't Christians know what that really involved...?

Of course, I'm not advocating everyone *must* see this film to be religiously complete or anything. And I haven't seen it and I may walk out agreeing that it is too violent. I'm approaching this from more of a historical viewpoint than a religious one. It just reminds me of But I do remember people saying to me after Braveheart (another Gibson film bashed for it's copious bloodletting) "I don't even think people really did that to each other." What do you think a sword does to flesh when you hack it into someone? Since time began, we have been finding hideous ways to kill each other--and the old thought was that the longer it took, the better. And part of me does feel that this is an important film in that respect, as Moonlight Angel posted.
Oh, but they did! Drawing and quartering was the standard punishment for treason, which is what they accused William Wallace--Braveheart--of. "Braveheart" was a very violent movie, but so were the times it was set in. My nervous system was so shot after that movie that I'm really nervous about exposure to a ton of violence. I'm not sure how much penance my nervous system *needs* to feel, or appreciate Christ's suffering for us. Some people have a sanitized version of reality that doesn't comprehend this level of pain and suffering. This movie is useful to wake those people up.
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Old 02-26-2004, 07:54 PM   #137
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For people who *aren't* going to see the movie but who are feeling a little guilty, maybe because they feel like they *should* see it as Christians, here are some things to do instead (collaborated on by me and my mom, as neither of us want to see the movie):

--Give a little extra money to your church or to a charity you support.
--Write a letter to an unjust company or country (Campus Ministry at my school is doing this after Mass every Sunday during Lent; they're calling it "Lenten Letters").
--Clean out your closet and give the excess to a soup kitchen or clothing closet.
--Get a Lenten devotional book and read and pray from it every day (a priest in the theology department at my college gave me a nice one).
--Get on a Lenten scripture reading plan (your clergyperson could surely recommend one).

Any other recommendations to strengthen one's faith throughout Lent without seeing the movie?
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Old 02-26-2004, 08:16 PM   #138
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Originally posted by melon
High horses, aside, "Mr. Black," I'm guessing that you haven't seen the film.
You guess incorrectly. I saw the film a few hours before I dropped by.


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It focuses solely on death and violence, nothing else. Such a thing as "plot" is also removed, so as to put even more focus on the death and violence. I understand that this has become a political issue, whereas liberals must hate the film and conservatives must defend it, no matter what the actual content (or lack thereof) of the film is, but let's just say that I'm tired of this excuse. I don't hate the film at all, but I also think that it misses the mark.
Maybe we saw two different films. The film I saw had flashbacks to the Sermon on the Mount and John's lengthy account of the Last Supper. In both flashbacks, Jesus taught love -- to love your enemies and to love one another.

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Of course, "Mr. Black," I know precisely what you're trying to imply: that I'm a terrible Christian. And for someone who has supposedly only posted 12 posts, that's quite presumptous of you.
For someone who's only seen me post 12 times, it seems presumptuous of you to claim to know "precisely" my motives.

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If you've bothered at all to read what I've been saying, it is that:

1) LOVE is the point of Jesus' first coming. You can throw around all the passage numbers you want, but if LOVE weren't so central as to why Jesus came in the first place, not only would He have not made it His sole commandment, but St. Paul wouldn't have so boldly proclaimed it "the law," in replacement of all the other (Romans 13:9-10). But LOVE is the one thing that people will continually try to avoid, because, out of all the "commandments," that one is the hardest to live up to, particularly since LOVE is not a very "macho" thing to do. And, thus, that's precisely why male-dominated religion focuses on damn near everything else but LOVE, and that's why it has missed the mark. It is, thus, no better than a group of modern-day Pharisees, and you can spit out all the Bible passages you want: that's precisely what they did too.
I agree that love is the reason Jesus came, but not just to teach love but to show love, and the Passion story is the ultimate act of love. I can't understand how you seem to miss that.

As for your criticism of the macho patriarchy, I'm quite sure I don't know what that's about. To criticize this film as the most "macho" depiction of Jesus while missing the fact that the Passion details the greatest act of love... Sorry, but you lost me.

Quote:
2) The RESURRECTION is the birth of the Christian faith, not the death. In spite of Gibson's big blame game (i.e., "the Jews killed Christ," Satan's fault, "it was all our fault"), if Jesus' death and resurrection paved our way to be able to go to Heaven, as tradition holds, then is it at all possible that this is what God wanted? Of course, that would certainly imply predestination, but Christ's life is nothing without His resurrection. THAT is what this film misses as well.
Again, did we see the same movie? The film I saw began with Jesus praying in the garden, where it's clear that the Father did not want to let the cup (or "chalice") pass from His Son. When questioned by Pilate, Jesus did assert that the unfolding events were of His choosing. And it did, in fact, end with the Ressurection and triumphant major-key music.

We can disagree on whether or not there was too little emphasis on certain aspects. There is a case to be made, for instance, that there was too little time to appreciate the wonder of the Resurrection.

But the attempt was there.

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Old 02-26-2004, 08:25 PM   #139
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Originally posted by paxetaurora

Any other recommendations to strengthen one's faith throughout Lent without seeing the movie?
Check the link in my sig. Write your debt letter.

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Old 02-26-2004, 08:42 PM   #140
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Originally posted by Lewis Black
For someone who's only seen me post 12 times, it seems presumptuous of you to claim to know "precisely" my motives.
Let's just say that I don't believe you to be an original poster, and that I have a good idea of who you were here in a previous life.

Let's also say that I'm not the only one.

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Old 02-26-2004, 08:47 PM   #141
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
For people who *aren't* going to see the movie but who are feeling a little guilty, maybe because they feel like they *should* see it as Christians,
No offense Pax cause I know you are not they should, but why would anyone feel guilty for not seeing this movie?
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Old 02-26-2004, 08:49 PM   #142
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
Any other recommendations to strengthen one's faith throughout Lent without seeing the movie?
I am joining my parish's altar guild.
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Old 02-26-2004, 08:54 PM   #143
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Melon, if that's what you believe, why pretend otherwise?

Ultimately, I don't care if you think I'm Elmer Fudd or Daffy Duck. It has no impact on whether I'm right that the central message of Christianity is both Jesus' command to love and His redemptive, sacrificial act of love -- and that Gibson's movie atleast attempted to connect the two, even if we can argue over the success of that attempt.


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Old 02-26-2004, 09:17 PM   #144
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Originally posted by Lewis Black
Melon, if that's what you believe, why pretend otherwise?
Call me "polite," I guess, and that we probably shouldn't be talking, if you are who I think you are.

Quote:
Ultimately, I don't care if you think I'm Elmer Fudd or Daffy Duck. It has no impact on whether I'm right that the central message of Christianity is both Jesus' command to love and His redemptive, sacrificial act of love -- and that Gibson's movie at least attempted to connect the two, even if we can argue over the success of that attempt.
Fair enough. I don't think that this is what we were arguing initially anyway; that's what I said all along. Where we got into arguments is around the Pharisee-like Christians who parade every "law" in the book, except love.

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Old 02-26-2004, 09:31 PM   #145
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Then, we definitely agree on at least one thing: the chief command is love, and I'll also agree that those Christians who miss that miss the core of Christian morality.

It's just that I believe -- strongly -- that Christianity is at least as concerned with what Jesus did as it is with what Jesus taught. Most certainly, Gibson's film doesn't present the whole story of both, but it does try to connect His supreme act of love (Christ submitting to the brutality of the Passion) to His teachings of love in the upper room and during the Sermon on the Mount. The context is abbreviated (perhaps too much), but it is there.


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Old 02-26-2004, 09:35 PM   #146
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I can respect that.

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Old 02-26-2004, 10:25 PM   #147
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Originally posted by anitram
I think that's a very simplistic answer.

There are people who really can't stand violent films. My mother was thinking about watching the movie, but after a colleague saw it, he told her what it entailed and she said she would probably feel sick over it. So, she's not going. It has nothing to do with not "wanting" to see it, but it's simply too gruesome for everyone.
And that's fine. I understand that. They don't have to see the movie if they feel the violence may be too much for them to handle.

But some can manage to stomach it a little better than others, and again, since this is dealing with a crucifixion, well...it's not going to be very pretty.

That, and I think this post sums up nicely what I'm trying to say, too:

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I think the idea that someone would voluntarily die on our behalf is really beyond our full comprehension. The graphic depiction may close that gap.
.

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Old 02-26-2004, 10:34 PM   #148
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Originally posted by paxetaurora

Any other recommendations to strengthen one's faith throughout Lent without seeing the movie?
Find someone you feel has wronged you. Call them up, take them out to eat, and forgive them.
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Old 02-26-2004, 10:41 PM   #149
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Originally posted by anitram


Do you think it's necessary to watch what has been called "the most violent film of all time" to comprehend the horror?

Do you need a re-enactment of the Holocaust gas chambers to comprehend the horror there?

I say no. We are rational, adult people. For those of us who have a medical/biological background, we know very well what happens to a body in shock. I don't need to see a movie to know what happened to Jesus.
The majority of people in America do, sadly. Again, I'm not saying people MUST see this film. It's not crucial to anyone's life and probably in this case, ignorance is bliss. All I'm arguing is that people recognize that this was a horrible reality. To go into this film and come out complaining how sickened they were show that many are not rational, thinking adults. They didn't have to see the film. The trailers alone are a good indicator of what the audience is in for.

I have to disagree with anyone calling it the most violent film of all time. Not with all the slasher and action movies that regularly push the envelope. It's the context of the violence that is bothering people.

I guess that's really my point--people are screaming that it's inappropriate in a religious film, without understanding any of the history behind it. Like I said, people wear crosses--what do they think they were originally used for?

As for the Holocaust analogy, isn't that a moot point? We have very graphic documentary footage and show it readily in classrooms and on television. It has been a long time since I've seen it and I was very young, but I recall "Schindler's List" being very graphic--and being grateful that it was in black and white. If certain scenes had been softened would it have been as accurate? As powerful?
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Old 02-26-2004, 10:46 PM   #150
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Originally posted by melon


Call me "polite," I guess, and that we probably shouldn't be talking, if you are who I think you are.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember Achtung Bubba being from Pittsburg, and anyway, "Mr. Black", doesn't have the same writing style.
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