The Fracturing of a Party... - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-06-2008, 01:21 PM   #1
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 09:08 PM
The Fracturing of a Party...

It seems we're at a very interesting time for the Republican party, yesterday turned out to be a very telling day.

The Republican party seems to be slowly fracturing...

We have those that are supporting Ron Paul, and to be honest if it was someone else, someone who wasn't such a quack but running on a similar platform I dare say this portion of the party would be much bigger. For there are many who do not support this war, and do not like the big spending mentality that this party has taken on.

We have the evangelicals, a portion of the party that even those within the Republican party can't stand but feel they will lose without their vote. This is a portion that doesn't like to be ignored, if they don't get pandered to they will whine, maybe even stay home.

The party is very much divided on spending and size. You have one group calling themselves conservatives keep using catch phrases of the past like small government and fiscal conservative, but are defecit spending like it's going out of style and embracing big brother faster than any liberal.

Immigration also a big dividing point amongst the party right now, you have those that want to build the great wall of America equipped with lazers and heat seaking missles, and you also have those true economic conservatives that are scared of losing labor.

And one of the biggest signs of this party's downfall is the talking heads are actually bashing the frontrunner and say they will vote democrat if McCain is the nominee.

This morning I was listening to a very conservative talk radio show on the Texas Public Radio and the host was talking about this very thing, which got me thinking about starting a thread.

His theory was that if enough conservatives are divided they'll stay home and the Republicans will lose this election. If the Republicans lose this election and the Democrats take over the White House and especially if they take it over for 8 years, then we can definately see the Republican party split into at least two parties.

So what do you think?
__________________

__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 01:38 PM   #2
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,335
Local Time: 07:08 PM
Maybe that will take us closer to a real multiparty system.
__________________

__________________
martha is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 01:46 PM   #3
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,294
Local Time: 10:08 PM
The problem is, if they split into two main factions (fiscal conservatives ie. moderates v. social conservatives ie. far right), neither party will be viable in an election. They will essentially be conceding to the Democrats over and over again. Which means they'll just have to consolidate into one party down the road (as they did in Canada). At which point the question becomes, which wing of the party will take over? And then you're back at square one.

Aside from getting one bad guy on the Supreme Court (Roberts) and one complete fool (Alito), Bush really hasn't done anything for the "base." I have often wondered about how stupid they are and how long it would take for them to recognize that their platform isn't going anywhere. Apparently they are awaking from their slumber finally.

The feeling I got back in 2004 is that a good part of the Democratic establishment (lead by the Clinton wing) had no real interest in seeing Kerry win. And I get that same sense today about factions within the GOP....that they may just be willing to quietly and passively concede 2008. They have a candidate they hate, who stands for a number of things they can't stand, and the math may tell them to bide their time.

We'll see how it shakes down!
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 02-06-2008, 01:52 PM   #4
ONE
love, blood, life
 
U2isthebest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vision over visibility....
Posts: 12,332
Local Time: 11:08 PM
That's a great analysis, and I would agree. I know I've already mentioned it, but since I've been reading Tom Brokaw's latest book "Boom!: Voices of the Sixties", I'm fascinated and intrigued by the similarites in the 68 election and the 08 one. There's actually a chapter I just read, interestingly called 'The Fracture of 1968', that talks about how the Democratic party began to come apart that year. Brokaw says, "Change was everywhere, and the effect was disorienting. Nowhere was this change more dramatic than in the Democratic party. In retrospect, this was the end of the long-running successful formula cobbled together by President Franklin Roosevelt in the wake of the Great Depression. After three decades, the New Deal coalition of farm and labor, of urban Catholics, and ethnic minorities , was coming to an end. While the right side of the American political spectrum remained rooted to its traditional beliefs, those on the left turned on each other in a ferocious internecine fight triggered mostly by Vietnam." When I read that I felt like I was reading commentary about this election with the parties being reversed and the details of the reasons being different. The tone and conclusion would be the same though. I feel like this election is the beginning of the end of the Republican's long and sucessful strategy to play to the conservative Evangelicals and the rest will follow. It seems as though the Evangelicals are starting to lose a bit of ground in their heavy control on the Republican party. I don't know all of the reasons for that, but I think a big part of it is that those of us who are young Christians are not holding the traditional Christian conservative beliefs. I'm a registered Democrat and a Christian, and I know a lot of other Christian friends and acquaintances are not a part of the Republican party either. If that base begins to weaken the Republicans are going to have to come up with a new strategy. That could end up being chaotic for them after years of the tried and true formula. As for the part of the statement where Brokaw talks about the Right holding on to their typical beliefs during the 68 election, I see that as a bit different to what the Democrats are doing during this time, although I do see the usual Democratic concern for healthcare, education, and civil rights much more than I do from the Republicans. In the last part of the statement where he talks about the Democrats turning on each other in the fight over Vietnam, I see a similarity in the way the Republicans are turning on each other in the fight over "morals and values" first of all, but also Iraq. Your breakdown, BVS, of the sides the Republicans are taking really solidifies the observations I've noticed. Granted, Hillary and Obama have traded fierce barbs at some points, but I see that as mere political rhetoric and done more so by people in their respective campaigns than by the Clinton and Obama themselves. That's also been toned down a great deal. As for the Republicans, I see their mudslinging as far more than just typical political strategy to get the nomination. They all seem desperate to prove how "Republican" they are, as opposed to highlighting their real differences. The problem is that it's hard to define what a "Republican" is or wants this time around.
__________________
U2isthebest is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 01:58 PM   #5
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 07:08 PM
Re: The Fracturing of a Party...

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So what do you think?
this wii die down a lot
once McCain locks up the nomination

and McCain can and will most likely beat Obama in Nov.

Hillary would give McCain a more difficult contest.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 02:05 PM   #6
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
The problem is, if they split into two main factions (fiscal conservatives ie. moderates v. social conservatives ie. far right), neither party will be viable in an election. They will essentially be conceding to the Democrats over and over again. Which means they'll just have to consolidate into one party down the road (as they did in Canada). At which point the question becomes, which wing of the party will take over? And then you're back at square one.
That was exactly my thought this morning when listening to him. There's no way they'll split they'd be too scared of losing all viability.

Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Aside from getting one bad guy on the Supreme Court (Roberts) and one complete fool (Alito), Bush really hasn't done anything for the "base." I have often wondered about how stupid they are and how long it would take for them to recognize that their platform isn't going anywhere. Apparently they are awaking from their slumber finally.
Exactly, they aren't the brightest bunch. I think what will more than likely happen is that instead of splitting the Republican party will actually try and find a way to be viable without Dobson's "base". They will just move on and start ignoring this bunch, and this group will eventually realize you can still live their lives the same way even if their religion is kept in the church and home.

I'm not sure what the party will do along the lines of the fiscal split.


Quote:
Originally posted by anitram

The feeling I got back in 2004 is that a good part of the Democratic establishment (lead by the Clinton wing) had no real interest in seeing Kerry win. And I get that same sense today about factions within the GOP....that they may just be willing to quietly and passively concede 2008. They have a candidate they hate, who stands for a number of things they can't stand, and the math may tell them to bide their time.

We'll see how it shakes down!
I kinda felt like Kerry was that decision you have to make when you have 30 seconds left and someone says "you better pick one", and you realize too late that you made the wrong decision under the preasure. I think we were all united in outing Bush, but just couldn't make the right decision in time...
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 02:09 PM   #7
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 09:08 PM
Re: Re: The Fracturing of a Party...

Quote:
Originally posted by deep


this wii die down a lot
once McCain locks up the nomination

and McCain can and will most likely beat Obama in Nov.

Hillary would give McCain a more difficult contest.
I agree a lot of it will die down once McCain gets the nom, and most of this won't be an issue unless McCain loses.

But like this host was saying, that this has been slowly building for years, this isn't a new problem and McCain isn't exactly the one to unite the party, so these factors will continue to grow.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 02:16 PM   #8
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by U2isthebest
I'm a registered Democrat and a Christian, and I know a lot of other Christian friends and acquaintances are not a part of the Republican party either.
I've never registered under any party.

It's interesting, it came out close to his death that Billy Graham was a registered Democrat. Not that he was hiding it, he just never made a point to associate himself with a party. I remember when some of my "you can't be a Christian and not be a Republican" acquaintances heard this, they went irrate and said that made them lose their respect for him.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 02:19 PM   #9
ONE
love, blood, life
 
U2isthebest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vision over visibility....
Posts: 12,332
Local Time: 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I've never registered under any party.

It's interesting, it came out close to his death that Billy Graham was a registered Democrat. Not that he was hiding it, he just never made a point to associate himself with a party. I remember when some of my "you can't be a Christian and not be a Republican" acquaintances heard this, they went irrate and said that made them lose their respect for him.
He's still alive. His wife died last year. I remember reading that same article and being surprised. I always loved and respected him because he was so different than the typical "hellfire and brimstone Mr. Morality" preacher, but I knew that revelation would really piss some Christians off.
__________________
U2isthebest is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 02:24 PM   #10
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 09:08 PM
Yes, I meant close to his wife's death... my bad.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 02:26 PM   #11
ONE
love, blood, life
 
U2isthebest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vision over visibility....
Posts: 12,332
Local Time: 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Yes, I meant close to his wife's death... my bad.
No problem. I figured that's what you meant!
__________________
U2isthebest is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 04:07 PM   #12
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,580
Local Time: 03:08 AM
Re: Re: The Fracturing of a Party...

Quote:
Originally posted by deep


this wii die down a lot
once McCain locks up the nomination

and McCain can and will most likely beat Obama in Nov.

Hillary would give McCain a more difficult contest.
You really think that? Almost every DEM, or Non Rep voter I know has said if HRC gets the nomination, they will either not vote, or go for some 3rd party.

She will unite the GOP, and it will be another 4 years of them running the country (not that there's anything THAT wrong with the GOP).

If Obama takes the nomination, I don't think anyone the GOP can come up with.
__________________
BEAL is online now  
Old 02-06-2008, 05:38 PM   #13
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 10:08 PM
Funny, if she gets the bid, every Dem I know will be at the polls with flags waving!
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 05:43 PM   #14
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 10:08 PM
Re: Re: Re: The Fracturing of a Party...

Quote:
Originally posted by BEAL
You really think that? Almost every DEM, or Non Rep voter I know has said if HRC gets the nomination, they will either not vote, or go for some 3rd party.

She will unite the GOP, and it will be another 4 years of them running the country (not that there's anything THAT wrong with the GOP).

If Obama takes the nomination, I don't think anyone the GOP can come up with.
I disagree that the Dems will be turned off by her. I think markedly few Dems are anti-Hillary. I think the only issue with her is the unification of the GOP.

And the GOP is absolutely that bad.
__________________
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 02-06-2008, 06:01 PM   #15
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
2861U2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: watching the Cubs
Posts: 4,253
Local Time: 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje
Funny, if she gets the bid, every Dem I know will be at the polls with flags waving!
White flags, right?


I think the Democratic party is in trouble whoever gets the nomination. They were talking about this on MSNBC a while ago. All Democrats eventually wanted to see a black presidential candidate in their lifetime, and same with a woman candidate. But the problem is that they are running in the same year. Think about if Obama gets the nomination. A lot of women who really wanted the woman to win may be angry, and while they may like Obama alright, they'll stay home because "their" candidate didn't win. Same goes for Hillary winning and the black voters being disappointed.

I'm pretty optimistic about McCain. The Republicans will rally around him eventually. The Limbaughs and Dobsons may stay home, but McCain can do without them.
__________________

__________________
2861U2 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com