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Old 06-06-2011, 08:54 PM   #826
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No doubt, but the question is what is descriptive of nomadic cultures vs. what is prescriptive by God. Tradition holds that Jesus affirmed marriage by performing His first miracle at the wedding of Cana in John 2. Monogamy is affirmed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 7. Ephesians 5 is Paul's words about the picture of marriage as an illustration of God's love for us.
Ok, I'm confused... Granted I didn't go look up the verses to get context, but I still don't see "romantic" love in these descriptions you posted.

Jesus affirmed marriage, but is there anything in that story that stated if the marriage was arranged or spoke of their romantic feelings for each other?
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:12 PM   #827
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Jesus affirmed marriage, but is there anything in that story that stated if the marriage was arranged or spoke of their romantic feelings for each other?
I mentioned that in response to your comment about polygamy. By virtue of Jesus' beginning His ministry with a miracle at a wedding, and the end of Revelation as a wedding party (closer translations would refer to it as a love feast), the whole of the New Testament is framed within the context of a marriage. And the centrality of love as the center of a marriage is explicitly stated in Paul's exhortations in Ephesians for the husband to love his wife as Christ loves his church.

And anyone looking for romantic love in the Bible need look no further than the Song of Songs.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:33 PM   #828
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One can be centrist and be able to rationally look at his country and recognize that it has historically done/is doing some pretty shitty stuff.
Sure, one can be conservative and do that. What is so lacking now is perspective. Bad stuff is bad stuff but how does it compare with the generations prior? And how does it compare to other regions at the time. And to what degree was progress made subsequently?

Michael Medved wrote an article a few years ago with the premise that today's African-Americans are unequivocally better off than if their ancestors had remained in Africa. The howls it produced were both predictable and sad. It's amazing that some people simply were not equipped by their education to approach such a notion and judge it logically.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:09 PM   #829
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Because such an article basically says "The ends justified the means" when the means were despicable?
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:57 PM   #830
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Because such an article basically says "The ends justified the means" when the means were despicable?
Again, not to hijack the thread but:

The "ends" of colonial slavery were most certainly not to eventually create the highest standard of living for blacks anywhere in the world. In fact, if black America were an economy it would rank in the top 20 economies of the entire world. Doesn't justify slavery, the institution discrimination or the personal bigotry very much part of black history in the United States but boy... sure seems like some people would much rather dwell on the past and the bad than admit that there is an inherent goodness and greatness in our country that eventually triumphs.
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:00 AM   #831
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sure seems like some people would much rather dwell on the past and the bad than admit that there is an inherent goodness and greatness in our country that eventually triumphs.


why do constantly remind us of this?

i mean this as a serious question.
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:11 AM   #832
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I mentioned that in response to your comment about polygamy. By virtue of Jesus' beginning His ministry with a miracle at a wedding, and the end of Revelation as a wedding party (closer translations would refer to it as a love feast), the whole of the New Testament is framed within the context of a marriage. And the centrality of love as the center of a marriage is explicitly stated in Paul's exhortations in Ephesians for the husband to love his wife as Christ loves his church.

And anyone looking for romantic love in the Bible need look no further than the Song of Songs.
Ok, I see what you are trying to say.

And I agree to a certain point, but not completely. Yes there is romance in the Bible and yes Paul spoke about how a husband should love his wife like Christ loves the church, but I still don't think there is anywhere where it makes the point that a marriage has to have romance or that all marriages are an expression of romance. The analogy about loving a wife like Christ loved the church I think is more about devotion, commitment and agape love rather than romantic love.
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:13 AM   #833
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The analogy about loving a wife like Christ loved the church I think is more about devotion, commitment and agape love rather than romantic love.


which is precisely what you need to make an economic arrangement work in the long term.

i'd argue that our modern understanding needs a bit more of this.
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:23 AM   #834
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Michael Medved wrote an article a few years ago with the premise that today's African-Americans are unequivocally better off than if their ancestors had remained in Africa. The howls it produced were both predictable and sad. It's amazing that some people simply were not equipped by their education to approach such a notion and judge it logically.
Predictable and sad?

A woman is raped and has a child, she loves the child, but are you going to tell her "it was actually a good thing you were raped". I'm sure that would result in some predictable and sad howls as well.

Talk about predictable and sad...

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but boy... sure seems like some people would much rather dwell on the past and the bad than admit that there is an inherent goodness and greatness in our country that eventually triumphs.
You might want to look up the word "inherent" because there's no way that you can admit such atrocities and then call something "inherent goodness".
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:29 AM   #835
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which is precisely what you need to make an economic arrangement work in the long term.

i'd argue that our modern understanding needs a bit more of this.
Completely agree.

I think we've tipped the scales too far the other direction. At one time marriage was more about the arrangement and the obligation while romantic love and happiness took a back seat, but now I believe it's focus is too much about the romance and not enough about the "contractual" commitment. Now when the romantic love fades or gets lost in the rush of life we're too willing to call it quits. I think a good marriage needs a true balance of both.
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:33 AM   #836
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there is an inherent goodness and greatness in our country that eventually triumphs.
This is the worst thing ever. This statement right here.
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:57 AM   #837
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Dan, why do you hate America, you unpatriotic lowlife?
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Old 06-07-2011, 01:35 AM   #838
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Completely agree.

I think we've tipped the scales too far the other direction. At one time marriage was more about the arrangement and the obligation while romantic love and happiness took a back seat, but now I believe it's focus is too much about the romance and not enough about the "contractual" commitment. Now when the romantic love fades or gets lost in the rush of life we're too willing to call it quits. I think a good marriage needs a true balance of both.
I actually completely agree. Once the bloom's off the rose, so to speak, you find out the difference between love and lust, between infatuation and actual connection. One of the reasons I have a great appreciation for the four-fold definition of love as the Greeks had it (and as C.S. Lewis so eloquently explored in "The Four Loves") is that true love encompasses and transcends more than one element. It's "both/and", not "either/or", and false exclusions miss the point. The whole reason for the Scriptures framing marriage in the context of a sacred covenant between two people and God is that love is more than about what you feel...not to the exclusion of romance, but to the inclusion of romance in its appropriate place. There is an obligation to love that (should) bind us to each other, particularly when it's not easy.

Now, back to the name-calling.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:13 PM   #839
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why do constantly remind us of this?

i mean this as a serious question.
Oh, I guess I'm like Oliver Wendell Douglas in Green Acres always giving patriotic speeches why everyone else wonders where the sound of the drum and fife playing "Yankee Doodle" is coming from.

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Old 06-07-2011, 10:50 PM   #840
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Oh, I guess I'm like Oliver Wendell Douglas in Green Acres always giving patriotic speeches why everyone else wonders where the sound of the drum and fife playing "Yankee Doodle" is coming from.


how do you think non-Americans react to this?
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